soapbox rant

as i have advocated on this forum numerous times over the last several years, to succeed in obtaining our goals we need to collaborate viable goals at the state level and move nationally across the country. IMHO the main stumbling block to meeting our goal(s) is the egotistical entities, in some case multiple individuals, at the state level who refuse to look at the big picture outside their little confining borders all under the guise of their mantra ~ we know what is best for our state!! how did that mentality work in Texas & FL?

quote...groups have taken a page from one of the most successful campaigns in history: the gay rights movement's effort to win same-sex marriage...the unexpectedly rapid victory for same-sex marriage represented only the latest notch in the LGBT movement's belt. unquote.

we wonder why as a group we consistently fail to move forward is because our opponents have already climbed aboard the strategy bandwagon, , quote We have been borrowing from their playbook for years,” says Dan Gross, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence...The fight for immigration rights borrowed literally from the LGBT movement. unquote
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...y-lesbian-abortion-immigration-guns/86223632/

personally, i believe if you peel back the onion you will discern bloomy's girls have been following the LGBT strategy playbook from the beginning...

i even recently managed to get the resistive chap from Utah to acknowledge the LGBT's methodology as viable; I have talked to others privately at length about working towards consolidating state leaders to meet after putting their egos in their pockets so they could reach consensus on viable obtainable goals. then, move on to other state meetings until there was a national consensus everyone could push nationally.

all to no avail. darn, come on folks, even the nice LEs managed to push their carry agenda across the country and now 'correction officers' want to play and won a court decision saying they can.

bottom line, with a couple of state exceptions who are doing an exemplary job IN THEIR STATE...we blame the legislators.... i am afraid i personally blame the egotistical leaders of the grassroots entities...prime example, even SC has LGBT marriage ~ no gun rights, but by golly, they do have LGBT marriage.

i personally do not expect a national gun permitting activity whatsoever.

ipse

So, what else is new. All chiefs and no indians. They all want to argue over every nuance of gun rights and not get on the same page. It's "shall not be infringed" stupid. But, I guess, that's too easy.....

CoL, not sure how to interact and change the egotistic mentality either...

sigh...

ipse

A national permission slip? Not needed, not wanted, nor can be required.

Nightmare said:

snipp...

Click to expand...

appreciated it better when you were stuck quoting your hifalut'n nuclear quantum theory, Platonism, and Science-Conjecture-Evidence-Probability, ad nauseam tomes.

nightmare, i say this with all the kindness i can muster...nursery rhymes do not suit your personality as it makes you sound as well as lowers your commentary to mcbeth's...all i could muster.

always remember everybody has a laughing place ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9-a4rx_zPg

ipse

davidmcbeth said:

A national permission slip? Not needed, not wanted, nor can be required.

Click to expand...

And there's why we can't have nice things. Also a bang on example of the type of stuff Solus is talking about as I understood him.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, and again and again.... The gun control laws were not passed all at once. They were passed incrementally in communities then states then against all nationally after enough states had an agreeing mindset and regulation. They took away our 2A rights a little at a time state by state until they got the critical mass of opinion and votes to federalize their constitutional encroachments. And we are going to have to claw back our 2A rights a little at a time which, just so happens to be the way this has been working out since FL passed the first modern CC laws in the mid 80s. This incrementalism is also consistent with what Solus discussing about using LGBQT tactics and strategy.

In the case of national CC, to argue out of hand against a national CC license/permit concept akin to how driver's licenses are handled is to argue against one more step towards normalizing the exercise of 2A rights and, hopefully, seeing ever more states move to, or at least towards, constitutional carry.* For example, if millions of NYC tourists can visit NYC armed, especially if one of them must use those arms for legit self-defense, the people of NYC who face an essential ban on CC except by their elites and "betters", may finally get enough gumption to scream about the disparity and, being they can't themselves change federal law, demand local/state law changes to the NYC natives can carry just like the out of towners.

Anyway, I agree with Solus to a great extent. But I will point out that the LGBQT model, gun control group model, general (D) "community organizer" model are all pretty much Rules for Radicals playbook applications. Also known as How Obama Got Elected and Planned to Destroy America With the Approval and Admiration of Nearly Half of America. (not a real book).

*Obviously there are certain dangers to this as we have seen the feds often, once they get their nose in the tent to regulate interstate behavior, to try to regulate that same arena intrastate. That to me is the biggest short and long term risk of a national CC or other federal pro-2A that is anything other than repealing existing federal gun control law.

MamaLiberty said:

I think that used to be called, "putting all your eggs in one basket."

Seems to me that our diversity (you should pardon the expression) is our strength, not our weakness. No central control to be easily knocked out. Now the OC, CC, Fudd, etc. arguments aren't really harming anyone, and the few true haters among them can probably be ignored without much damage...

Dissent, individual choices, resistance, non-compliance, the will to survive. These sound a lot more important and useful than more NRA memberships. Yes, I am a member, but I'm not about to trust the NRA to save my rights or my life. I'm the only one responsible for either one.

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i am of the same ilk, however, 50 ++ (opps, sorry 49 ++, as SC doesn't have any type of viable grassroots anything!!) separate grassroots entities each and every one pursuing their own egotistical & shortsighted state unique goals isn't getting firearm owners anywhere on the slippery slope...

for goodness sake, as pointed out even the nice LEs who retire have more firearm carrying capabilities than JQPublic and they sure as h3ll didn't stand behind the NRA's skirts asking...'pls push this for us, prudy pls, huh will ya?'

ipse

Not Rant, rather astute observation

I will probably take a bit of flak for this but......the primary difference in the comparison stated by the OP is "rights".

Consider for a minute the struggle of these diverse groups to get their rights recognized, while the gun rights camp mostly perceives a long established right. (read not a dog in the fight)

<snip from OP>
IMHO the main stumbling block to meeting our goal(s) is the egotistical entities, in some case multiple individuals, at the state level who refuse to look at the big picture outside their little confining borders all under the guise of their mantra ~ we know what is best for our state!! how did that mentality work in Texas & FL?
</snip>

I am guilty of this myself and have even displayed it publicly on internet boards. The difficulty was differing opinions regarding intent of the law. It then occurred to me the laws could use some scrubbing. There used to be a post here on OCDO that detailed state laws but I cannot seem to find it easily.

I would submit that most folks don't even know their local/state laws and are depending on some other national organization to do the heavy lifting.

Interesting factoid; In the state of Washington a marine distress marker (flare gun) is considered a firearm, as well as cartridge fired nail guns, and as such is subject to sale only through a FFL.
I was successful in getting my county to exempt cartridge fired nail guns commonly used in construction but not flare guns. How stupid is that?

I let my local gun club membership expire because the board of directors wanted to institute background checks for membership. It was suggested that instituting background checks would be easier than changing the by-laws. I have very strong feeling about the constitutionality of background checks and felt it necessary to part ways with the leadership. Perhaps I was more irritated that they would take the "easy" way out, because it is harder to change the "rules".

I feel your rant; I have been called "rabid" to my face with regard to my rights.

What do we (collectively) agree on? Background checks, waiting periods, training, licensing .......... Where does it end?


In the meantime I continue to write my local law enforcement, local and state representatives, lobby them with facts,....just the facts.

It has been suggested 10% of the people in any given volunteer group do 90% of the work, You are in the 10% group.


Solus, we don't agree on everything, but I do thank you for your efforts.


~Whitney

So whitney, mama, deep, gutshot, grape, color of law, JT, BB62, philosophically riddling nightmare, ya even the UT bloke ...

so suggestions...how do we make this break from the state level egotistical status quo to expressing even regional goals or move directly to national stage?

what should be the goal ~ nationally permitted carry like the nice retired LE's enjoy or?

thoughts? while i stepped off the soapbox, doesn't meet i can't be a pain in arse per se.

let's see if some type of consensus could be reached on commonality goals to begin pushing in small bites...

ipse

Ground Rules

solus said:

So whitney, mama, deep, gutshot, grape, color of law, JT, BB62, philosophically riddling nightmare, ya even the UT bloke ...

so suggestions...how do we make this break from the state level egotistical status quo to expressing even regional goals or move directly to national stage?

what should be the goal ~ nationally permitted carry like the nice retired LE's enjoy or?

thoughts? while i stepped off the soapbox, doesn't meet i can't be a pain in arse per se.

let's see if some type of consensus could be reached on commonality goals to begin pushing in small bites...

ipse

Click to expand...

I am pretty hard over but always willing to listen. I believe a consensus will only be reached by setting some common acceptable ground rules.
I also believe that a states rights may come to bear at some point, with that said; any law, rule or policy that does not empower the average citizen or transfers power to the government should be severely scrutinized before enactment.

Now the difficult part of my statement is qualifying it with regard to the constitution.
This is the argument the aforementioned groups used to gain recognition. What does the constitution say about that?

Now do we start the 2nd amendment debate again or qualify our argument with established law such as the Heller decision?

Q. Is the right a civil right?
Q. Can that right attain a protected status?
Q. Is there enough interest to gain media attention?


If there is agreement that the LGBT community can answer yes to the previous questions then the road map has been laid before us.

Just food for thought.

~Whitney

Nightmare said:

The need for consensus is the failure of leadership. The need for leadership is the failure of education.

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hummm...how well has that concept worked for bernie, hillary, and donald, et al?

ipse

From what is visible to me, I suspect some folks have a fundamentally flawed premise: That somehow RKBA is not making great progress, perhaps that we are even losing ground.

That is demonstrably false. In 1986 we had 8 shall issue States plus Vermont; and 16 States that refused concealed carry at all. We now have 32 shall issue States, 10 "constitutional carry" States, and zero States that provide zero path to concealed carry. In addition, we've seen a lot of targeted gains in many States. Recognition of out-of-State permits, and issuance of permits to non-residents is much more common today than it was 20 years ago. Several States have rolled back off-limits locations so that a person can enjoy a nice dinner, perhaps even legally imbibe, while legally armed. Several States allow carry into schools, allow teachers to be armed, and so on. State preemption against local infringements have gained strength in some States. We've seen "parking lot preemption" to protect employees from anti-gun employment policies that would otherwise leave them disarmed from the time they leave home each morning. We've seen some States pass laws attempting to exempt in-State manufactured guns from federal sales/FFL requirements. A number of States (mostly in the East) have passed "No Duty to Retreat" laws. Such long standing laws in the Western US have withstood political attacks.

In 1994 we saw the Democrats push through their scary looking gun ban. We then saw them lose control of the US House of Representatives for the first time in some 40 years. I'm not aware of a constriction of our RKBA from Congress since this time.

In 2004, that ban sunsetted out of existence as the gun grabbers could not muster the votes to re-enact it.

In 2005 we got federal liability limits for gun manufacturers to protect against lawsuits intended to bankrupt honest businesses for the criminal misuse of their legal products.

While not perfect, we won the Heller decision that affirmed the RKBA is an individual right not dependent on militia service. We won McDonald extending Heller (limited as it is) to the States in addition to federal enclaves.

In 2010 we re-gained the ability to legally carry firearms into National Parks under the same terms as the State in which the NPS land is located. For large Western States, this opened up vast tracts of land to legal possession of a firearm. For smaller, Eastern States, it eliminated potential criminal violations for pulling into what looks like a rest area or making a wrong turn on small, convoluted roads.


Simply put, anyone who operates from a position that we are losing the battle is starting from a fundamentally flawed premise. Having so utterly failed to properly assess where we are, it is unlikely that such persons are likely to be successful in charting a course to someplace better.

There is much that we might learn from the success of the homosexual community the last 15 years. But we must also remember that RKBA does not and is not going to enjoy the backing of the media, Hollywood, or liberal judges the way homosexual issues did/do. So we shouldn't be surprised that our battle is taking longer. Importantly, however, I believe our efforts are leading to true, long-lasting changes in social views among a growing segment of the population. What was supposed to be dying culture as fewer kids took up hunting in the 70s and 80s has grown tremendously as shall issue permits have enabled city folks with no interest in hunting to effectively defend themselves. Every hint of a threat to the ability to purchase sporting rifles leads to new sales records being set and it isn't guys buying their 20th AR that is doing this nearly so much as folks buying their first. Mass shootings no longer result in mass calls for new gun control nearly so much as they result in many new converts wanting to defend themselves. Check out what has happened to the Pink Pistols' membership numbers the last 2 weeks.

RKBA losses in the last 20 years have been minimal, and very localized to a few ultra-left-wing States, and victims of immigration from such States.

There is much left to be done. And there are grassroots organizations working together effectively to continue winning the battles we need to win. If you want to make a difference beyond personal activism, join such an organization in your State and assist with the grungy but critical work to effect elections. Do this even if you don't agree 100% with everything that grassroots pro-RKBA group is doing. Elections have consequences. And those who help a decent, if imperfect, candidate win, most often get his ear over those who sat on the sidelines for lack of a perfect candidate.

If there isn't a good, grassroots, pro-RKBA organization in your State, get with 3 or 4 other pro-RKBA folks and start one. My suggestion in doing this is to seek out those who are solid on RKBA, but who have different political or social views than you do. You will provide some balance to each other, allowing you to attract and retain many more members/supporters from across much more diverse demographics than if the group is formed by 5 guys who mostly agree on all this political and social. Then reach out to the grassroots groups in neighboring States to help you connect into the larger, nationwide, grassroots networks. I assure you, those networks exist and are quite active.

But such folks certainly do not bother coordinating on chat list where any hint that someone actually DO something beyond OCing in public or posting opinions here is met with the 100th posting of Janet Jackson's "What Have You Done For Me Lately" video. Those who wish to coordinate realize that the first step is an effort to be civil in disagreement, to address others by their names (rather than with dismissive or offensive terms), and to be willing to leave non-RKBA issues off the table. There is more than enough room for honest disagreements within mainstream RKBA issues and strategy. If a person can only work with someone who also shares conservative religious views or irreligious libertarian views or agrees on abortion, immigration, and taxes, that person will find he can work with too few others to make any real difference.

In any event, I wonder how many of those bemoaning the inability to work together will be compelled to attack my manner of posting rather than seeing if there isn't something useful in it, even if it is inconvenient to read on a smartphone screen.

Charles

leosa...2004, 2010, and 2013!!! nationally gave nice LE permission to cc without regard to local or state statues. and mate, it is not even tied to the bloody second amendment.

so, tell me again your perception of the strides john q public and the citizens of our country has made on a national level over the years?

the GLBT community, has since 1967, been pushing thru the judical system, past religious factions, overcoming the court of public opinion without a bloody amendment in place...they forced their agenda through the courts and amended the established amendments to suit their needs...not on a state level but on the national level.

as mentioned numerous times, the nice LEs got their permission slips w/o even hanging their power play on the 'right to bear' mantra.

i do not give a rat's behind about manufacturers liability, or parking lot exemptions, or this state does or does not recognize timbuc2's permit...or that this case law isnt perfect...how or why it got passed at the state level is not important..your perception mate it is a stride forward is disappointing and you have a fool for counsel.

ipse