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Thread: Waterbury PD chief: 'Let's cooperate', talks about avoiding dangerous interactions

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    Waterbury PD chief: 'Let's cooperate', talks about avoiding dangerous interactions

    If an officer stops your car, if they ask to search your person or vehicle, if they demand entry into your home, comply and then complain later to the department's internal affairs office and police chief's office if you feel your rights have been violated, Riddick said.

    http://www.rep-am.com/articles/2016/...cal/968853.txt

    To refuse a search is a right, not a provocation

    "To verbally refuse a search is an exercise of one's rights. It isn't a provocation. That ... police officials see it as the latter is telling -- and a problem."

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...a-provocation/

    H/T John Wesley Hall FourthAmendment.com
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    Mayor of Waterbury Refuses Access to His House !

    Well, the folks in Waterbury are not very nice !

    I called the mayor's office to see if he would allow me into his house to conduct a search.

    Oddly enough they indicated that I would be put in handcuffs instead of being granted access to his house.


    What is good for the goose is not good for the gander in Waterbury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    If an officer stops your car, if they ask to search your person or vehicle, if they demand entry into your home, comply and then complain later to the department's internal affairs office and police chief's office if you feel your rights have been violated, Riddick said.
    Not much context in the linked article. So often with these kinds of statements, context is everything.

    But taken at face value, isn't that pretty close to what our most pro-RKBA lawyers around here suggest? Sure, verbally assert your rights. But before push comes to shove, physically comply. Indeed, how often have we seen the suggestion here to say something like, "I do not intend to offer any physical resistance, but I do not consent to a search of my person/car/home/property"?

    I'm not sure what value there is in parsing words too closely in these kinds of reports, but "ask[ing] to search your person or vehicle" seems a bit different to me than "asking if" they can search. Asking to might be interpreted as a less inflammatory way of saying "if they demand to search...comply and then file the proper complaints or lawsuits." And if cop or 10 demand to do something, I see only two choices: comply or fight to the death to avoid complying.

    Complying leaves the door open for legal recourse later including providing a platform for getting laws changed.

    Fighting to death is probably going to complicate things a bit more...for someone.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    I think it may have been on this site, someone's signature line was...

    Cop: May I search your car?
    Me: May I piss in your boot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Not much context in the linked article. So often with these kinds of statements, context is everything.

    But taken at face value, isn't that pretty close to what our most pro-RKBA lawyers around here suggest? Sure, verbally assert your rights. But before push comes to shove, physically comply. Indeed, how often have we seen the suggestion here to say something like, "I do not intend to offer any physical resistance, but I do not consent to a search of my person/car/home/property"?

    I'm not sure what value there is in parsing words too closely in these kinds of reports, but "ask[ing] to search your person or vehicle" seems a bit different to me than "asking if" they can search. Asking to might be interpreted as a less inflammatory way of saying "if they demand to search...comply and then file the proper complaints or lawsuits." And if cop or 10 demand to do something, I see only two choices: comply or fight to the death to avoid complying.

    Complying leaves the door open for legal recourse later including providing a platform for getting laws changed.

    Fighting to death is probably going to complicate things a bit more...for someone.

    Charles
    You can call the Chief ... his # is 203-574-6906 if you wish. The mayor's office tried to direct me to him but I told his office is was not necessary as I was just seeking permission of the mayor to search his house, which he could grant me if he desired.

    Next time I'm over that way, I'll give a friendly knock on his residence's door and ask again. Politicians love to have their homes visited by members of the public ! I do this a lot (won't return my call eh? knock knock, guess who?) and I have not had a bad experience yet as far as a public official just saying "get outta here", which they could of course.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 07-20-2016 at 04:39 PM.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    If an officer stops your car, if they ask to search your person or vehicle, if they demand entry into your home, comply and then complain later to the department's internal affairs office and police chief's office if you feel your rights have been violated, Riddick said.
    hummm complain to the fox watching the constitutional hen house...ya i see where citizen's are going to get any kinda resolution to their complaint...now put in a civilian ombudsman who has the power to immediately fire the nice LE if found to have violated any citizen's constitutional rights or law and i will be impressed and MIGHT/COULD get behind the chief's guidance.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    hummm complain to the fox watching the constitutional hen house...ya i see where citizen's are going to get any kinda resolution to their complaint...now put in a civilian ombudsman who has the power to immediately fire the nice LE if found to have violated any citizen's constitutional rights or law and i will be impressed and MIGHT/COULD get behind the chief's guidance.

    ipse
    Sad--how things have changed.

    In his white paper, Are Cops Constitutional?*, Dr. Roger Roots introduces something I found interesting.

    In the early days of this republic, in one jurisdiction, if you suffered a search based on a warrant lacking in probable cause, the person who swore out the warrant was liable to double damages. And, the magistrate who issued that warrant on insufficient cause was liable to triple damages!

    But, that was before police even existed. Police were invented by Sir Robert Peel for London, around about 1829-39. In the early days, London cops were called both Peelers and Bobby's (after Robert). Peeler died out, and that is why cops in London are today called Bobbies.

    So, cops only showed up in America a good 30-40 years after the Bill of Rights.

    Now, watch this. Back in the day, lets say you and I are neighboring farmers. My prize pig disappears. I suspect you. I don't call the police--there aren't any. I have to hoof it down to the magistrate and swear out a search warrant for the places on your farm where I might find my pig. And, I gotta do the searching myself (with friends) if the sheriff isn't available to help.

    So, lets say I indignantly swear out a warrant, maybe exaggerating a bit, maybe choosing my words carefully for vagueness. The magistrate issues the warrant, but a closer examination would show it doesn't add up to probable cause.

    Thus, if you refuse to unlock the smokehouse, the barn, etc. And, I bust open locks, doors, windows, and so forth. Now, I owe you double damages.

    But! Wait! Do I have an out? As a private citizen is there any possible way sovereign immunity can attach to me?

    Of course, not.

    But, a cop is a government agent. Sovereign immunity--the king can do no wrong--can attach to a government employee. And, the so-called qualified immunity enjoyed by police derives directly from sovereign immunity. You cannot sue the king unless he agrees to let you sue him. You cannot sue the king's ministers or agents unless he agrees to let you sue them.

    This--I suspect--is where many of the teeth that would protect your right against a search disappeared. The fact that police were merely invented as government employees. They get qualified immunity.
    Although, why that happened is still a little foggy for me. The magistrates liable to triple damages were government employees. Why did the courts suddenly find so-called qualified immunity for police, but not earlier courts for those magistrates?

    Whether my suspicion is correct, we have gone from, "Please don't sue the pants off me for double damages" to "Please suffer the search, Mrs. Chicken, and then complain to the foxes in Internal Affairs."


    *Dr. Roots' paper is available on-line for free. The history he provides makes for very interesting reading.

    http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-20-2016 at 07:38 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Thanks for the refresher. I had read it before.

    I have moved into an iPad Pro and use primarily a very cranky secure Adblock browser for iOS with very limited capability for abuse and convenience.

    So I copied your link URL, opened the HTML document native browser Safari, and selected the option Save as PDF in iBooks, and now have a clean searchable copy saved.

    Thanks.
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    When I tell cops that I have lived in locations in the US without any cops they are mystified as to how I still exist ~ 'cause it would just be killing fields LOL.

    We have way too many cops. Way too many. Burden on tax payers and allows legislatures to create laws just meant to control behavior instead of actual crimes.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    When I tell cops that I have lived in locations in the US without any cops they are mystified as to how I still exist ~ 'cause it would just be killing fields LOL.

    We have way too many cops. Way too many. Burden on tax payers and allows legislatures to create laws just meant to control behavior instead of actual crimes.
    you have failed to mention, purposefully or not, the nice 'agents' of DHS who roam the entire country w/o concern for state boundaries, at will, w/broad arrest powers in the accomplishment of their arbitrary role of defined duties of 'as the secretary desires'!

    further, the sec of dhs, is charged with prescribing their own charter for the agents to defend.
    40USC 1315.

    (fbi/treasury/etc are concerned with legislatively passed statutes)
    Last edited by solus; 07-21-2016 at 08:39 AM. Reason: clarity issues
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    you have failed to mention, purposefully or not, the nice 'agents' of DHS who roam the entire country w/o concern for state boundaries, at will, w/broad arrest powers in the accomplishment of their arbitrary role of defined duties of 'as the secretary desires'!

    further, the sec of dhs, is charged with prescribing their own charter for the agents to defend.
    40USC 1315.


    (fbi/treasury/etc are concerned with legislatively passed statutes)
    40 USC 1315
    (e)Authority Outside Federal Property.—
    For the protection of property owned or occupied by the Federal Government and persons on the property, the Secretary may enter into agreements with Federal agencies and with State and local governments to obtain authority for officers and agents designated under this section to enforce Federal laws and State and local laws concurrently with other Federal law enforcement officers and with State and local law enforcement officers.
    The statute is clear. The agents only have power on federal land/property. They have no federal power out on the public streets of the state.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    40 USC 1315
    The statute is clear. The agents only have power on federal land/property. They have no federal power out on the public streets of the state.
    quote: 1315(1): ...including duty in areas outside the property to the extent necessary to protect the property and persons on the property.

    (2) Powers.—While engaged in the performance of official duties, an officer or agent designated under this subsection may—(A) enforce Federal laws and regulations for the protection of persons and property;
    (B) carry firearms;
    (C) make arrests without a warrant for any offense against the United States committed in the presence of the officer or agent or for any felony cognizable under the laws of the United States if the officer or agent has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony;
    (D) serve warrants and subpoenas issued under the authority of the United States;
    (E) conduct investigations, on and off the property in question, of offenses that may have been committed against property owned or occupied by the Federal Government or persons on the property; and
    (F) carry out such other activities for the promotion of homeland security as the Secretary may prescribe.

    (c) Regulations.—(1)In general.—
    The Secretary, in consultation with the Administrator of General Services, may prescribe regulations necessary for the protection and administration of property owned or occupied by the Federal Government and persons on the property. The regulations may include reasonable penalties, within the limits prescribed in paragraph (2), for violations of the regulations. The regulations shall be posted and remain posted in a conspicuous place on the property.


    so CoL you are correct about the spirit and intent but the caveats as stated, where agents, who carry federally authorized firearms, can accomplish duty in areas outside the property to the extent necessary; conduct investigations on and off the property in question, and finally, carry out such other activities for the promotion of HS as the Secretary may prescribe. and the secretary can prescribe regulation(s) & suitable penalties w/o legislative oversight.

    is scary...oh wait the president is in charge of DHS so it won't become a problem since there is civilian oversight to preclude abuses...ya right.

    ipse

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    you have failed to mention, purposefully or not, the nice 'agents' of DHS who roam the entire country w/o concern for state boundaries, at will, w/broad arrest powers in the accomplishment of their arbitrary role of defined duties of 'as the secretary desires'!

    further, the sec of dhs, is charged with prescribing their own charter for the agents to defend.
    40USC 1315.

    (fbi/treasury/etc are concerned with legislatively passed statutes)
    They like Pokemon Go ? Gotta catch 'em all ?

    I also have broad powers.

    I have not had any interaction with actual DHS agents but I would treat them like any other federal agent.

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    Saw this over at http://fourthamendment.com/


    http://www.tsc.state.tn.us/sites/def...nsheckyopn.pdf

    Seems as if once you give consent, ya cannot complain about the search later.

    So what is Waterbury's plan when people complain about searches ? They'll laugh at the gullibility of folks.

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    I've heard people say that you can not have LE like they have in the UK, unarmed cops (just flashlights, sometimes tasers and an expandable baton) in the US.

    My question is 'Why not?".

    BGs ramp up the firepower because they know they are facing firepower.

    I'd say let citizens carry firearms, give them Castle Doctrine, issue all females who are employed a pink revolver at age 18 or 21.

    Make all cops the 'bring 'em back alive' branch. Institute the rules I mentioned previously. Make all staties and all traffic cops like elevated metermaids.

    Increase the pay, decrease the number, make them all get some criminal justice training.

    No shooting unless shot at first.

    Limited qualified immunity (convicted perps can't sue them).

    Accept that some BGs get away if you observe safety precautions first. After all a large percentage of BGs DO get away now.

    Eliminate the 'locker room hero' and 'locker room zero' culture which promote shooting people.

    Fire a lot of the top brass and replace them with non-politically motivated public servant types.

    Citizen oversight. NTSB review external to the agency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Citizen oversight. NTSB review external to the agency.
    (scuffs toe in the dust) Aww. You give me too much credit. I can't oversight all them myself.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    (scuffs toe in the dust) Aww. You give me too much credit. I can't oversight all them myself.

    oh great and powerful, with that false modesty and humility...sure you can...

    ipse

    (hurling in a corner of a round room)
    Last edited by solus; 07-24-2016 at 05:36 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    oh great and powerful, with that false modesty and humility...sure you can...

    ipse

    (hurling in a corner of a round room)
    Ok! OK! I give up! You win!!



    (New readers should understand that I have long taken pretty much every opportunity to jest when someone puts a capital "C" in front of citizen. For example, I've lost count of the number of times I "protested" "Hey! Watch it with that capital "C", will ya?!!")
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-24-2016 at 06:08 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    He has a primitive notion of 'corner' as a round room has infinite corners where the floor joins the wall.

    It's like me trying to teach Milady Wife how to load the dishwasher by starting with the highest curvature items and then nest in order of diminishing curvature. Curvature being the ratio of the change in the angle of a tangent that moves over an arc to the length of the arc and the limit of this ratio as the length of the arc approaches zero.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 07-24-2016 at 06:16 PM.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	round room.jpg 
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ID:	13185

    all i can say is phish to you...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZvFHx3oPGc

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 07-24-2016 at 06:51 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Beggars room.

    Beggar; the transitive verb, To exhaust the resources of; to outdo.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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