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Thread: Does libertarianism exclude assistance to the destitute?

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    Does libertarianism exclude assistance to the destitute?

    By Randy Barnett @ Volokh Conspiracy, July 22 at 12:47 PM
    Does libertarianism exclude any governmental assistance to the destitute? Right-Libertarianism and the Destitution Objection [my emphasis] — an interesting dissertation on this topic by [PhD candidate] Peter Bornschein — is now available online. Here is an excerpt from its conclusion:

    https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_f...osition=inline

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...the-destitute/
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Its a natural right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness ..... its not a guaranty.

    So, no, the gov't should be in the business of governing .... not giving out cheese.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    after a cursory review, glad i am not on the young man's dissertation committee, because he has miserably failed to articulate two basic premises for his paper from which to articulate his hypothesis ~ specifically,
    1. a succinct definition of "government assistance..."
    is he talking SSI, Medicare, Food Stamps, Housing, ad nauseam ~ better yet...government subsidized STUDENT LOANS?
    is he talking corporate welfare
    is he talking subsides?

    2. a succinct definition of 'poor'
    since it changes every year (In 2016, that's $24,300 for a family of four, based on percentage of the Federal Poverty Level.)

    until these are defined he has nothing on paper except blah blah blah.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 07-23-2016 at 02:35 PM.
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    I am sure that you will post your dissertation and qualifications to criticize.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    SNIP he has miserably failed to articulate two basic premises for his paper
    Agreed.

    I think it goes deeper than that. My opinion is that limited-government libertarian thought must always fail because it runs hard up against an unconsidered premise. Namely this:

    If I decide that it is legitimate to use a threat of force (coercion) to tax or regulate another, then, in the same breath, I am necessarily saying it is legitimate for another to tax or regulate me.

    Lets say I declare to myself, "I think the constitution is the way to go. I think it is legitimate. Therefore, it is OK for me to vote to coerce others to follow the constitution." That decision by me to apply the constitution was my personal decision. It does not matter how "legitimate" it is because its "legitimacy" is really only my say-so, it is really only my judgment that it is legitimate. I think it is legitimate. Fair is fair: If I think it is acceptable to coerce another human being for my own reasons, then in that same breath, perhaps without even realizing it, I am also saying it is legitimate for another human being to coerce me for his own reasons. Using the constitution as an example, if I consider it is legitimate to coerce others within my personal interpretation of the constitution, then it necessarily follows it is legitimate for others to coerce me within their personal interpretation of the constitution. It doesn't matter whether I am I strict originalist. The crucial point is that by agreeing it is OK to coerce others, then in the same breath I necessarily agree it is OK for them to coerce me according to their belief of what the constitution says and allows.

    Hey! If it is OK for me to coerce him based on what I think is legitimate, then it necessarily follows that it is legitimate for him to coerce me based on what he thinks is legitimate.

    Welcome to Democrat vs Republican. Conservative vs Liberal.

    In a local restaurant, I saw a decorative poster with a portrait of Will Rogers. Under his likeness appeared this quote, "We will never have true civilization until we learn to respect the rights of others."

    While I am not a philosopher, I strongly suspect this is the distinction between a barbarism and civilization.
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-23-2016 at 07:45 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Libertarians believe it is upto the individual if they choose to help.

    They believe in helping those they believe need helping. They just don't believe that the government should be allowed to take from those who work and give it to those who don't.

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    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Even if a government program to support "the destitute" were voluntary, don't you think a lot of folks would voluntarily help out?

    Not claiming this to be the outlook of libertarians, but probably a voluntaryist perspective.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Even if a government program to support "the destitute" were voluntary, don't you think a lot of folks would voluntarily help out?

    Not claiming this to be the outlook of libertarians, but probably a voluntaryist perspective.
    Personally, I find it VERY difficult to contribute to ANY charitable organization that has a 50% or greater overhead cost. It seems to me that decreasing the overhead cost of MOST government charities/giveaways to 50% would be a great improvement in dollar efficiency!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Personally, I find it VERY difficult to contribute to ANY charitable organization that has a 50% or greater overhead cost. It seems to me that decreasing the overhead cost of MOST government charities/giveaways to 50% would be a great improvement in dollar efficiency!
    Seems to me a voluntary system could be beneficial. People feel empowered when given choices. The problem with a private welfare system would be corruption. The problem with a government run welfare system would be corruption.

    When you're talking about removing numbers on a ledger from one person and adding numbers to another person's ledger there doesn't seem to be the need for a middle man except in regards to record keeping and programming. I use a 3rd party app on my phone to instantly trade money with people all the time.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I am sure that you will post your dissertation and qualifications to criticize.
    i am sorry you fail to recognize the complete academic failure his committee has provided to this candidate in the development, oversight, and approval of their dissertation.

    further, the candidate has also committed the most serious faux pas imaginable by not identifying the credentials of all associated with his dissertation. without those little initials and their positions, the candidate's document is nothing but a gaggle of papers.

    for the record, my terminal academic credentials awarded in my profession are of no consequence in this discussion.

    ipse

    added: i didn't even do a grammatical analysis as i couldn't get past this in the acknowledgements.
    quote: Finally, I would like to thank my department secretary, Margy DeLuca. Without her grad school would have been impossible to manage. unquote
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    after a cursory review,...
    glad you didn't waste your time on it. IMO his point all begins with the idea that it's socially disgusting that the L's do not agree that the gov should support the poor. Therefore Ls need to learn how to answer the criticism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Seems to me a voluntary system could be beneficial. People feel empowered when given choices. The problem with a private welfare system would be corruption. The problem with a government run welfare system would be corruption.

    When you're talking about removing numbers on a ledger from one person and adding numbers to another person's ledger there doesn't seem to be the need for a middle man except in regards to record keeping and programming. I use a 3rd party app on my phone to instantly trade money with people all the time.
    There is at least ONE religious based charity program which I willingly and wholeheartedly support. Among the requirements imposed for those able is the requirement that the recipient does something of value for the aid received in an effort to maintain/improve the self respect of the recipient. This particular religious charity is one with a 100% of contributions will be used directly for the support of recipients.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    There is at least ONE religious based charity program which I willingly and wholeheartedly support. Among the requirements imposed for those able is the requirement that the recipient does something of value for the aid received in an effort to maintain/improve the self respect of the recipient. This particular religious charity is one with a 100% of contributions will be used directly for the support of recipients.
    Which charity would that be? Link?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Which charity would that be? Link?
    LDSCharities.org The Pure Love of Christ. 100% donations go to those in need.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Seems to me a voluntary system could be beneficial. People feel empowered when given choices. The problem with a private welfare system would be corruption. The problem with a government run welfare system would be corruption.

    When you're talking about removing numbers on a ledger from one person and adding numbers to another person's ledger there doesn't seem to be the need for a middle man except in regards to record keeping and programming. I use a 3rd party app on my phone to instantly trade money with people all the time.
    +100

    You've touched on something I've held true for a few years.

    Statists argue (occasionally--when the discussion gets that far) that if government were consensual (taxes), nobody would contribute.

    I don't think so.

    Think about it for a moment. If suddenly the security of your person, your family, your friends, against criminal predation, foreign invasion, etc., were up to a voluntary choice on your part, would you voluntarily pay a fee to a totally consensual organization that performed the same legitimate functions usurped by coercive government?

    Would you suddenly feel a lot more responsible?

    I sure would. And, I'm betting a lot of others would, too.

    I very strongly suspect that the indifference we see today is brought about by coercive government supplanting personal responsibility. I strongly suspect that if the security (false) of coercive government were to disappear, more than enough people would say to themselves, "Gee whiz. I have to step up to the plate and take responsibility for my own security and that of my family and friends." And, they would voluntarily pay to support a security organization.
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-23-2016 at 08:05 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    LDSCharities.org The Pure Love of Christ. 100% donations go to those in need.
    Wow! Way cool!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    LDSCharities.org The Pure Love of Christ. 100% donations go to those in need.
    while it might scream propaganda...from the LDS charities...
    quote.
    When the multimillion-dollar Teton Dam disaster struck Idaho in 1976, a force of 45,000 Latter-day Saints was deployed almost overnight to provide emergency relief. When Hurricane Katrina hit in 2005, Mormon relief trucks arrived before the National Guard was even allowing relief through. Massive oil spills in South Korea in late 2007 found hundreds of volunteers handling the disaster with plans, supplies and manpower within days. The 2010 Haitian earthquake catastrophe was met immediately with 160,000 pounds of food and emergency resources, and a month later, when a devastating earthquake hit Chile, an airlift of tents, tarps, supplies and even diapers was quickly deployed. unquote

    http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/articl...osts-resources

    one of the shining examples of a group of individuals, across the world, coming together to make a difference for everyone.
    consider this one of the few i will give my money and time to w/o hesitation.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Taking from A and B and given to C..

    Read ' What Social Classes Owe to Each Other"" By William Graham Sumner...

    Enough Said!

    Regards

    CCJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Which charity would that be? Link?
    Nightmare let the cat out of the bag..... as far as the "charity"

    For members of the LDS church in need of Welfare (food, housing, funds, and employment support, ect) they can make use of the LDS welfare system supported by many if not most LDS members with voluntary contributions. It is this welfare program where the recipients are asked to do something in exchange for the support they received.
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 07-24-2016 at 12:03 AM.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    LDSCharities.org The Pure Love of Christ. 100% donations go to those in need.
    In which world though?

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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    Taking from A and B and given to C. Read ' What Social Classes Owe to Each Other"" By William Graham Sumner...Enough Said! Regards. CCJ
    FOREWORD

    Written more than fifty years ago—in 1883—What Social Classes Owe to Each Other is even more pertinent today than at the time of its first publication. Then the arguments and "movements" for penalizing the thrifty, energetic, and competent by placing upon them more and more of the burdens of the thriftless, lazy and incompetent, were just beginning to make headway in our country, wherein these "social reforms" now all but dominate political and so-called "social" thinking.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/18603/pg18603.txt
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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Wow! Way cool!
    no wonder mormons are the only ones that get into heaven.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    no wonder mormons are the only ones that get into heaven.
    ALL Mormons go to 'heaven', but their's is divided into Paradise, where they continue practice for Judgement Day, or Prison of the Spirit where the unrepentant must study and strive for atonement.

    My brilliant sainted mother, anti-christian and misandrist, taught that Heaven and Hell are here and now. In which one abides is predicated on one's goodness here and now.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 07-24-2016 at 08:34 AM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    ALL Mormons go to 'heaven', but their's is divided into Paradise, where they continue practice for Judgement Day, or Prison of the Spirit where the unrepentant must study and strive for atonement.

    My brilliant sainted mother, anti-christian and misandrist, taught that Heaven and Hell are here and now. In which one abides is predicated on one's goodness here and now.
    Couldn't have disliked men but so much. You were created and survived.

    IMO - we each create and live in our own heaven or hell.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Couldn't have disliked men but so much. You were created and survived.

    IMO - we each create and live in our own heaven or hell.
    My father was a hillbilly (Greenup, Kentucky) that did very well and very well by the family. 'Nuff said.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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