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Thread: Wonder if there's a way to OC, but hidden in plain sight?

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Wonder if there's a way to OC, but hidden in plain sight?

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    Last edited by Maverick9; 07-28-2016 at 06:10 AM.

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    Last edited by Maverick9; 07-28-2016 at 06:10 AM.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    ^ well I'm not trying to conceal it though if you put a 'housing' on top and carried IWB you'd have to have a permit in most states, true.

    I'm just talking about a way to get around the need for a 'cover garment' and to also have an option if someone says 'cover it up' so you can do it but not knuckle under to putting on a shirt or something.

    You could even have an OWB holster, but the bottom half would be also camoflaged to look like a large iPhone cover, mating with the top, but again be very thin latex. I know they have these with flaps and snaps, but that still takes time to get to the pre-deploy position. The latex top would stay in place, but not interfere with the operation.

    Just pondering...thanks for your reply!
    If open carry is legal then who would be ordering you to cover it up???????

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    ^ well I'm not trying to conceal it though if you put a 'housing' on top and carried IWB you'd have to have a permit in most states, true.

    I'm just talking about a way to get around the need for a 'cover garment' and to also have an option if someone says 'cover it up' so you can do it but not knuckle under to putting on a shirt or something.

    You could even have an OWB holster, but the bottom half would be also camoflaged to look like a large iPhone cover, mating with the top, but again be very thin latex. I know they have these with flaps and snaps, but that still takes time to get to the pre-deploy position. The latex top would stay in place, but not interfere with the operation.

    Just pondering...thanks for your reply!
    get a hand gun camo painted, which matches the holster and your camo gear pants and shirt

    something like this

    Click image for larger version. 

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    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 07-27-2016 at 08:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    get a hand gun camo painted, which matches the holster and your camo gear pants and shirt

    something like this



    ipse
    Here, fixed it.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    In some states hiding a gun in plain sight is considered concealed, such as a FAA revolver, and belt buckle. I would advice against any attempt without a permit to conceal by using hosing, belt buckle, or other obvious attempts to conceal.

    Now wearing a black gun with a black shirt and pants in a black holster would not IMO be illegal, or any other clothing that matches the gun/holster color. But I don't OC to hide my gun, I want it seen so there is no confusion that I am not a victim.
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    Fanny pack carry? Some consider this unconcealed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    In some states hiding a gun in plain sight is considered concealed, such as a FAA revolver, and belt buckle. I would advice against any attempt without a permit to conceal by using hosing, belt buckle, or other obvious attempts to conceal.

    Now wearing a black gun with a black shirt and pants in a black holster would not IMO be illegal, or any other clothing that matches the gun/holster color. But I don't OC to hide my gun, I want it seen so there is no confusion that I am not a victim.
    Been in several discussions like this on SigTalk which has some notorious anti OC members, from CA and NY, whom I suspect have never OCed nor even seen it? Lots of LE there. No opinions have been changed.......

    Topic was discreet open carry and discussing how you might dress in a manner that makes your open carry firearm less noticeable. Went immediately to full on black mall ninja!! That was rich!!

    Anyhow, a black patterned shirt, black holster OWB, black firearm combined with the FACT that people basically are unaware of what's going on around them, equals nobody notices and most that do, don't care. I have recently moved from a Northwoods hunting community to a mid state farming community and I do notice some difference in the head swiveling. I open carry into my bank at both places, and everywhere else. I've also played around some with wearing an all white shirt with the same black holster/gun combo and paying attention to reactions. I would say that is more obvious and also attracts more attention.

    My opinion would be anything intentionally covering your firearm would be concealing it, in most places. What that then requires pretty much differs depending on which state you're in. I've never had it happen but I suspect if you got asked to leave someplace due to OC and came back in with your gizmo, or even your shirt now untucked, that wouldn't make them much happier?

    I do put some thought into where I am going and how much I want to contrast with my gun and holster. I always say if you CAN'T see it, that's concealed. If you DON'T see it, it's not my fault you're not paying attention. This would be me being visible 360 degrees and not sitting in a booth, or standing next to a wall. That's not concealed either, IMO.

    I haven't found a place that bans firearms yet that I couldn't get the same service or product at a competitor who did not restrict. So, I'm basically if they won't allow me to come in armed, I don't come in. I have one exception, Foster and Smith, and I'm working on them! No sign of success anywhere in the near future, sadly.
    Last edited by Wstar425; 07-27-2016 at 11:31 AM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Fanny pack carry? Some consider this unconcealed.
    Who would that be?

    Cite please.
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    I had a Stainless Steel .22 NAA mini revolver that I put an eye screw in the butt of and hung from my keys on my belt loop on a quick disconnect. Looked like a keyfob but was a legal openly carried gun in my state. It went unnoticed by everyone but those who recognized it for that particular type of gun.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    WS I hate black clothing, besides showing every dog hair it is just downright hot. I am usually in a white or light colored shirt. If there are ivory grips available for my gun, they get those in place of black or wood grips. One carry gun is high polished stainless, and another is nickel plated. Even our Glocks have bright grip tape on them, pink for the wife, and white on mine. Even a person with their head in the clouds would have a hard time not seeing that I am armed. I want criminals to know, and not miss that I am no willing victim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    WS I hate black clothing, besides showing every dog hair it is just downright hot. I am usually in a white or light colored shirt. If there are ivory grips available for my gun, they get those in place of black or wood grips. One carry gun is high polished stainless, and another is nickel plated. Even our Glocks have bright grip tape on them, pink for the wife, and white on mine. Even a person with their head in the clouds would have a hard time not seeing that I am armed. I want criminals to know, and not miss that I am no willing victim.
    Yeah, I don't really care how one dresses, or how obvious or unobvious one wants to be. The other half of the equation is the people around you. Some people claim to be able to make every CC person they meet, and then some people wouldn't notice a Civil War cannon rolling by.

    I make a lot of eye contact with people. If you pass me and look at my face, you will find I'm probably already looking at you. People don't like to make eye contact with strangers, it seems to me. I also see it as an honesty issue, if you can't look me in the eye while your talking to me, I have issues with that. I'm sure there are other factors, such as self esteem, but making eye contact in a conversation is important to me. Maybe I read too much into that.

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    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    Speaking of wearing black, my gun was seldom noticed when I was out dressed like this:

    Speedy: LOCAL League Sec/Treasurer, Information Officer
    AKA: Hero Hog, Dr. Speed, "The Brass Mangler" and "That fat, old, balding, Grey-bearded gimpy guy"

    I don't have NEAR enough ammo on hand. `nuff said.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    Yeah, I don't really care how one dresses, or how obvious or unobvious one wants to be. The other half of the equation is the people around you. Some people claim to be able to make every CC person they meet, and then some people wouldn't notice a Civil War cannon rolling by.

    I make a lot of eye contact with people. If you pass me and look at my face, you will find I'm probably already looking at you. People don't like to make eye contact with strangers, it seems to me. I also see it as an honesty issue, if you can't look me in the eye while your talking to me, I have issues with that. I'm sure there are other factors, such as self esteem, but making eye contact in a conversation is important to me. Maybe I read too much into that.
    I have a mother in law who eye contact is painful, she has one eye that wanders. Of course though I would not trust her whether I could make eye contact or not.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroHog View Post
    Speaking of wearing black, my gun was seldom noticed when I was out dressed like this:

    Oh my gosh!!!! You don't wear brown shoes when dressing in black. This is a major fashion faux pas. Brown shoes are not a substitution for pearls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Who would that be?

    Cite please.
    I cannot provide a cite as I'm sure the law has since changed explicitly since then. But about 20 to 25 years ago Arizona statute had something about a gun in a visible holster wasn't concealed even if the gun wasn't visible. Think about a gun in one of the old military style flap holsters where the holster is obvious visible, but the gun is completely covered by the holster.



    (Sorry, not sure how to resize how a linked image displays here.)

    I remember a few folks back then making the case that fanny packs were so commonly used as holsters that they ought to get the same treatment as the military flap holsters and be considered technically non-concealed, even though the gun wasn't visible. If I recall, the State AG issued an opinion saying essentially, "Nice try, but not quite."

    Lots of good changes to Arizona law in the last 20 years that have rendered this question moot what with permit-free concealed carry now allowed. But I do remember, vaguely, the issue coming up in Arizona while I was living there doing some school work in the mid-90s.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 07-27-2016 at 02:45 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    I cannot provide a cite as I'm sure the law has since changed explicitly since then. But about 20 to 25 years ago Arizona statute had something about a gun in a visible holster wasn't concealed even if the gun wasn't visible. Think about a gun in one of the old military style flap holsters where the holster is obvious visible, but the gun is completely covered by the holster.

    --snipped--

    I remember a few folks back then making the case that fanny packs were so commonly used as holsters that they ought to get the same treatment as the military flap holsters and be considered technically non-concealed, even though the gun wasn't visible. If I recall, the State AG issued an opinion saying essentially, "Nice try, but not quite."

    Lots of good changes to Arizona law in the last 20 years that have rendered this question moot what with permit-free concealed carry now allowed. But I do remember, vaguely, the issue coming up in Arizona while I was living there doing some school work in the mid-90s.

    Charles
    Indeed nice try, but a fanny pack is not a flap style holster.
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    --snipped--
    Also, I'm not sure I asked this, but if you are driving a car in Va and you HAVE a permit and you are OC-ing, do you have to present (if asked) the permit since you are not Conceal-carrying?


    I understand that in Va, the rule is 'if carrying in or about the person you must present the permit on demand'. (it says nothing about talking about the firearm).
    Not if you are OCing, which is legal w/o a permit. The gun may also be in a secure (not locked) console or glove compartment.

    "In the instance of a traffic stop, should I advise the police officer that I have a concealed handgun permit?
    Virginia law does not require you to notify the officer that you have a permit. However, Section 18.2-308.01, of the Code of Virginia, requires you to be in possession of the permit whenever you are carrying a concealed handgun and to display the permit and a government-issued photo-identification upon demand by a law-enforcement officer
    ."
    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Indeed nice try, but a fanny pack is not a flap style holster.
    Indeed.

    But to be fair, I find a certain logic to the argument they made. The only material difference between a flap style holster and a fanny pack holster (as far as such a law regarding OC vs CC might go) is the extent to which a common observer recognizes the "holster" as a holster. Now ignoring all the really bad fashion issues with fanny packs the extent to which a fanny pack might be recognized as a holster is almost the same chicken-and-egg problem as with OC.

    If enough people do it then it becomes normal. So long as it isn't normal some might claim it is cause for alarm. So long as it is cause for alarm and subject to DOC, brandishing, or other charges, not enough are going to OC to normalize it so it doesn't cause alarm.....

    If enough folks used fanny pack holsters that fanny packs were recognized as holsters....

    Put another way, what of a legal AOW that doesn't look like a gun? A pager or cell phone gun carried in an OWB holster is not "concealed". But it isn't recognizable as a firearm to most anyone.

    On the flip side, not that long ago, one could walk around engineering colleges and see a lot of students with holsters not much different than the flap holster. They were carrying large slide rules rather than firearms. In such a setting, I'm not sure a flap holster would be any more immediately recognized as holding a firearm than would a fanny pack.

    Obviously, "....shall not be infringed" needs to be fully recognized in statute. My right to carry a firearm should not be the least bit dependent on how easily anyone else can determine whether I'm carrying that firearm. The nonsense about some inherent "evil" with carrying concealed/discreetly are nothing more than social and judicial claptrap from an era of reaching for some reason to make it hard for slaves, freed slaves, the poor, and other such "undesirable" groups to defend themselves.

    Such silly rules certainly don't apply to my carrying of religious or political materials under the 1st amendment. The whole premise of the 4th and 5th amendments is that I have a right to keep personal matters private if I so choose. But, so long as bad laws remain on the books, we look for ways to obey them in the least invasive way possible while we work to repeal said bad laws.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 07-27-2016 at 05:10 PM.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not if you are OCing, which is legal w/o a permit. The gun may also be in a secure (not locked) console or glove compartment.

    "In the instance of a traffic stop, should I advise the police officer that I have a concealed handgun permit?
    Virginia law does not require you to notify the officer that you have a permit. However, Section 18.2-308.01, of the Code of Virginia, requires you to be in possession of the permit whenever you are carrying a concealed handgun and to display the permit and a government-issued photo-identification upon demand by a law-enforcement officer
    ."
    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm
    So by the code, if you are OC-ing (or the firearm is not within reach in a glove box or toolbox) then you don't need to answer any questions or present any permits.

    Interesting. The legislature kind of makes it hard on the LEO, since he has a decision tree to go through.

    Cop: 'IF I stop someone for an expired tag, should I ask to see the permit?

    Cop: 'What if they're not carrying and they just say 'unh-uh' or shake their head no? Should I get them out of the car, pat them down or write them a ticket?'

    Cop: 'How do I know the ticket is warranted if they don't talk and aren't carrying?'.

    Say you are not carrying and you don't present permit and the LEO writes you a ticket (you say nothing). How do you show it was an invalid ticket. (most people would say 'I'm not carrying...or am I legally required to answer you, officer?)

    Basically if the officer is not willing to pat you down you never have to present your permit on demand because you COULD not be carrying.

    Goofy.

    IME, since your permit is linked to your Dr-License (and non-legally, I might add) they see it popup when they scan your license plate. It's in the VCIN. Again, stupid law, illegal insertion of you in a criminal database, and non-legal request (optional) by the Clerk to see your license. ("It makes it easier for us", is what the clerk says).

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Indeed nice try, but a fanny pack is not a flap style holster.
    you are reaping what you sow'd...

    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    you are reaping what you sow'd...

    ipse
    No, no - I walk the line.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHF9itPLUo4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Yeah discrete open carry is what I'm pondering, not because of any reason, really.

    I'd imagine if you had a dress shirt and it was black with a pattern, say like this:

    X X X X X
    ..X.X.X.X

    ...or similar, and you had a handgun with an IWB holster, and the handgrip of the firearm had the same pattern, it would be extremely discrete. The pattern breaks up the lines, and the IWB holster conceals the bottom half.

    Here, in Va, where they have 'Va tuck', you could consider that a no-permit-needed. (we have a permit, so I'm not trying to evade the rule).

    Also, I'm not sure I asked this, but if you are driving a car in Va and you HAVE a permit and you are OC-ing, do you have to present (if asked) the permit since you are not Conceal-carrying?

    In fact, let's say you say nothing, just give the officer your proof-of-insurance, Va DRLicence and Owner's Permit and say NOTHING - are you copacetic, good-to-go, 99% safe from LEO messing around with you? ("Get out of the car", "Any guns in the car", "Are you carrying?", "Do you have a permit?"). These are all questions that you don't HAVE to answer, just be polite.

    Am I correct?

    I have only been stopped twice in 30+ years, so again, just pondering for the sake of argument.

    We've even toyed with the idea of locking up the EDC in a tool box, just out of reach, to not have to be forced to surrender the piece, or answer questions.

    I understand that in Va, the rule is 'if carrying in or about the person you must present the permit on demand'. (it says nothing about talking about the firearm).

    In this climate of agitated LEO, I'm just thinking about options on the road.

    TIA

    I have no idea about the law in Virgnia. I do sometimes dress in a way that I consider to be "discrete" open carry. Sometimes I don't care, sometimes I actually might want it to be more obvious. Sometimes I want it it be a little less obvious. Sometimes I might actually even conceal!!!😳😳😳

    It is mostly about the image I am trying to put out, and rarely (I won't say never) about not offending someone's fragile snsibilities. I don't OC to church. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but it's not the most important thing at the time, I guess. I won't carry into someone's house without first asking permission. I've put way more time into discussing this than I do picking my daily wear, that's for sure. If I am working and all dirty or greasy and need to run to town, I would generally either change clothes, conceal, or not carry, as that is not the image I wish for people to remember when they see me. Again, I can't emphasize my feelings enough that people just don't pay attention nor notice, for the most part. But, some do for sure.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    As some people on the forum who have met me know and have seen, if I get asked something about my gun, it is most often not about carrying but if I'm a Fed. I've even had cops ask me that. I honestly don't know why. I guess being tall, short cropped hair, my bearing and looking decently fit (for my age at least) and carrying all add up to some stereotype in people's minds.

    I was getting my hair cut recently (just wearing slacks and a plain dress shirt, no tie), under the hair cutting cape with my strong side towards the back of the building, when a lady walked into the shop. She sat to wait and after a few minutes called out to me to ask what Fed dept I work for, utterly convinced that I just "look like a fed". I told her I wasn't law enforcement. She asked if I was undercover. I repeated. She insisted a bit then her stylist came and got her. Well, she ended up in the chair behind me so when I got up so she could see me and my sidearm in the mirror. She darn near jumped up and exclaimed, "Ah ha! I knew you were a fed. Obviously under cover!" I just smiled.

    I write that to agree with the open carry in plain sight is sometimes nearly concealed carry. I rarely get looks anymore, even from LEO and even in shorts. I can only guess at this point it is because I have that "look" of someone who is "supposed" to have a gun. Add the fact that most people do not notice at all to apparently having that "look" then even if someone notices, perhaps it doesn't even register because in their mind my carrying is just expected.

    So yeah, I agree and think there are a lot of things about an individual that make it more or less likely that anyone will notice OC or, if they do, that it will really register in their minds as a thing.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    On looks and being mistaken for a fed/cop, my dad, a former Marine, a 6' tall man of slender but not weak build, was a dark skinned man who had American Indian features and wore his hair in a crew cut style. He was a traveling salesman and normally wore a casual suit. He also needed glasses to read so he wore them in a case on his hip... Yes, people looked at him, caught a glimpse of the glasses case and were convinced he was a Fed/undercover cop and nothing he could say would dissuade them. This was "interesting" seeing as we were living in an apartment in Metairie, LA and the apartment next to us was VERY likely a mob house.
    Speedy: LOCAL League Sec/Treasurer, Information Officer
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    I don't have NEAR enough ammo on hand. `nuff said.

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