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Thread: Homelessness

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    Homelessness

    I am looking for some information on statutes, rules and regulations for current legal permit holders that may become or are currently homeless. Especially looking for options for a "physical address" to maintain their valid state or drivers license and permit to carry cards. I know some homeless shelters offer "physical addresses" but about individuals who are waiting for a vacancy will be living on the street or their cars, hotels, campground, ect? I know PO Boxes are not considered a viable address. I look forward to making solutions.

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    Minnesota Office of the Revisor of Statutes. Here ya are.

    Last edited by Nightmare; 07-31-2016 at 09:37 AM.
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    Could a FedEx box be an "address" .. it operates like a PO box but provides a physical address.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Could a FedEx box be an "address" .. it operates like a PO box but provides a physical address.
    Exactly, I've always thought about that too. I've been searching through the statutes and cannot find information on possessing firearms while homeless of current legal standing individuals. It's mainly biased towards criminal acts.

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    the critical concept being missed, an individual who is homeless, probably lacks the financial resources to pay the rent on a 'mailbox' from a retail business, especially since the leasor must have a viable & verifiable id listing a street address.

    further, i believe another way to ask your question would center around, what are the nice LEs going to do when they encounter a vagrant with a firearm who cannot substantiate the firearm is theirs?

    i know the state will not issue id without several valid proof, e.g. mail to the address.

    further, clarification to your query...are you talking a long gun or handgun; one firearm or multiple?

    finally, i am not aware of any agency who provides for the souls who are homeless that knowingly allow firearms on their premises ~ to grab a bite or to shelter overnight!

    ipse

    added, tks nightmare...
    sub 1b...must carry and produce permit and dl or other valid it,
    sub 7...permit only good for thirity days until carrier must notify sheriff of change of addy.
    Last edited by solus; 07-31-2016 at 11:02 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    A post office is there for general delivery.

    To: John Doe for general delivery - using the post office address. The post office must hold the letter for pick-up. The stamp price is for delivery to your home.

    Out west some small towns don't even have addresses. The general store is usually the post office and everything is sent to that place. Example: Johnson's General Store, Big Sky, WY. That's it.

    For years my brother had the local post office address on his driver license, NO BOX NUMBER.
    Last edited by color of law; 07-31-2016 at 10:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    the critical concept being missed, an individual who is homeless, probably lacks the financial resources to pay the rent on a 'mailbox' from a retail business, especially since the leasor must have a viable & verifiable id listing a street address.
    Not always true, some homeless have jobs but cannot afford a liable place of residence. What about if someone has a steady income but got kicked out of their home from divorce or something or choose not to rebound by renting or owning a physical home? I'm talking about if a individual has multiple firearms, I.e. Handgun or long rifle with permit to carry, do they have to surrender their permit, and either buy a safe box at the bank, storage unit or sell them?

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    And some just want to live w/o a dwelling .. nothing wrong with that and no right should hinge on that as there is no requirement to live in a house/apt.

    Here's a guy .. guess his address is Cave #1 ?

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/no-rent-l...97.html?ref=gs
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 07-31-2016 at 01:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thewayiseeit240 View Post
    Not always true, some homeless have jobs but cannot afford a liable place of residence. What about if someone has a steady income but got kicked out of their home from divorce or something or choose not to rebound by renting or owning a physical home? I'm talking about if a individual has multiple firearms, I.e. Handgun or long rifle with permit to carry, do they have to surrender their permit, and either buy a safe box at the bank, storage unit or sell them?
    uh, if the vagrant has no 'address' then they have no permit, per sub 7 quote: 7a. Change of address; loss or destruction of permit. (a) Within 30 days after changing permanent address...
    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=624.714

    btw, if the indigent has no 'address' you also do not have a viable driver's license per MN statutes 171.11 DUPLICATE LICENSE; CHANGE OF DOMICILE OR NAME https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=171.11

    since you have changed the parameter(s) and thrown $$$ into the equation, i know of several folk across the country who quietly (read surreptitiously) live in their rented storage shed (down from a fast food) with their belongings. (please note I am not advocating any breaking of private agreements nor community's legal statutes made with the lessor of the storage shed, just stating my knowledge of certain situations)

    i have also known of folk permanently negotiating a motel room (for years actually in once case) which would provide you an email addy to update Firearm & DL permits.

    bottom line, the citizen you are referencing has no requirement to turn in their invalid permits nor their possibly invalid driver's license.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    uh, if the vagrant has no 'address' then they have no permit, per sub 7 quote: 7a. Change of address; loss or destruction of permit. (a) Within 30 days after changing permanent address...
    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=624.714

    btw, if the indigent has no 'address' you also do not have a viable driver's license per MN statutes 171.11 DUPLICATE LICENSE; CHANGE OF DOMICILE OR NAME https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=171.11

    since you have changed the parameter(s) and thrown $$$ into the equation, i know of several folk across the country who quietly (read surreptitiously) live in their rented storage shed (down from a fast food) with their belongings. (please note I am not advocating any breaking of private agreements nor community's legal statutes made with the lessor of the storage shed, just stating my knowledge of certain situations)

    i have also known of folk permanently negotiating a motel room (for years actually in once case) which would provide you an email addy to update Firearm & DL permits.

    bottom line, the citizen you are referencing has no requirement to turn in their invalid permits nor their possibly invalid driver's license.

    ipse
    The statue listed ..... all these things are not mandatory .. the statue does not say that the issuing authority cannot issue ... and it does not have the magic word "and" in the statue.

    The form section also notes "telephone #" ... I don't have a telephone ... so I would not get a permit?

    And the requirement for the sheriff to do things is outside the control of the apllicant .. if the sheriff does not do these things then a permit can be denied? No, I don't think so.

    So, many and most (if not all) of these things are directory in nature. IMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    the critical concept being missed, an individual who is homeless, probably lacks the financial resources to pay the rent on a 'mailbox' from a retail business, especially since the leasor must have a viable & verifiable id listing a street address.

    further, i believe another way to ask your question would center around, what are the nice LEs going to do when they encounter a vagrant with a firearm who cannot substantiate the firearm is theirs?

    i know the state will not issue id without several valid proof, e.g. mail to the address.

    further, clarification to your query...are you talking a long gun or handgun; one firearm or multiple?

    finally, i am not aware of any agency who provides for the souls who are homeless that knowingly allow firearms on their premises ~ to grab a bite or to shelter overnight!

    ipse

    added, tks nightmare...
    sub 1b...must carry and produce permit and dl or other valid it,
    sub 7...permit only good for thirity days until carrier must notify sheriff of change of addy.
    Part of your premise imposes an attitude I and many others here find problematic-- It is not my responsibilty to prove I am the legal posessor of any item including firearms even if i am homeless or indigent. If a LEO has at minimum RAS that a specific firearm in my possession is not "legally" in my posession he must prove it --not the other way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Part of your premise imposes an attitude I and many others here find problematic-- It is not my responsibilty to prove I am the legal posessor of any item including firearms even if i am homeless or indigent. If a LEO has at minimum RAS that a specific firearm in my possession is not "legally" in my posession he must prove it --not the other way around.

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    let's back up a few...
    1. someone has posted a situation where someone is declared themselves homeless ~ not living with friends/acquaintances; but apparently on the street or other agency's providing temporary shelter and has multiple firearms in their possession.

    2. firearm (possibly DL) permit, due to lack of change of address, are probably invalid!!

    3. agencies do not normally allow firearms in their shelters and will call the nice LEs on those who violate their perception of safety for their residences.

    4. nice LEs, as previously discussed on numerous forum pages, do and can 'take' a citizen's firearms if they 'feel' their safety is at stake. they can and do run said firearms in their precious stolen firearm database and even if the individual has a valid permit, the nice LE can and do confiscate said firearms by stating they are stolen. guess what, the citizen is left to the judicial system to PROVE they are the lawful owner and to retrieve their wrongfully taken property.

    5. did you see any mention in RAS or PC...nope, citizen gave the nice LE their firearm w/o hesitation or duress. that the nice LE lied is not my concern since the citizen must judicially pursue their return.

    so now thrown in citizen's possibly shabby appearance/hygiene issues/sleeping in your vehicle w/invalid DL, ad nauseam...situation has just provided minimum RAS to the nice LEs ...

    bonus round: the nice LE just searched said vehicle and found multiple firearms...they will mess their pants from excitement!!

    ya you're right, it is not your responsiblity to prove you are the legal owner, the nice LE won't care...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    let's back up a few...
    1. someone has posted a situation where someone is declared themselves homeless ~ not living with friends/acquaintances; but apparently on the street or other agency's providing temporary shelter and has multiple firearms in their possession.

    2. firearm (possibly DL) permit, due to lack of change of address, are probably invalid!!

    3. agencies do not normally allow firearms in their shelters and will call the nice LEs on those who violate their perception of safety for their residences.

    4. nice LEs, as previously discussed on numerous forum pages, do and can 'take' a citizen's firearms if they 'feel' their safety is at stake. they can and do run said firearms in their precious stolen firearm database and even if the individual has a valid permit, the nice LE can and do confiscate said firearms by stating they are stolen. guess what, the citizen is left to the judicial system to PROVE they are the lawful owner and to retrieve their wrongfully taken property.

    5. did you see any mention in RAS or PC...nope, citizen gave the nice LE their firearm w/o hesitation or duress. that the nice LE lied is not my concern since the citizen must judicially pursue their return.

    so now thrown in citizen's possibly shabby appearance/hygiene issues/sleeping in your vehicle w/invalid DL, ad nauseam...situation has just provided minimum RAS to the nice LEs ...

    bonus round: the nice LE just searched said vehicle and found multiple firearms...they will mess their pants from excitement!!

    ya you're right, it is not your responsiblity to prove you are the legal owner, the nice LE won't care...

    ipse
    I refer you to the last sentence of your post which I quoted in my previos post.

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    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    I refer you to the last sentence of your post which I quoted in my previos post.

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    sorry you missed something...

    but to reiterate, the cops do not legality need any type RAS/PC to take your firearm and if you wish to maintain your property they have confiscated it is NOW your responsibility to PROVE it belongs to YOU ~ time and $$ oh and perhaps even an address of where you hang your clothes and park your vehicle.

    realize, you do not have an invalid DL, firearm permit, do not present a shabby appearance w/possibly bad hygiene, nor are you parking on public property living out of your vehicle; therefore, you might not have the nice LE take your firearm in the first place.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 07-31-2016 at 04:39 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    sorry you missed something...

    but to reiterate, the cops do not legality need any type RAS/PC to take your firearm and if you wish to maintain your property they have confiscated it is NOW your responsibility to PROVE it belongs to YOU ~ time and $$ oh and perhaps even an address of where you hang your clothes and park your vehicle.

    realize, you do not have an invalid DL, firearm permit, do not present a shabby appearance w/possibly bad hygiene, nor are you parking on public property living out of your vehicle; therefore, you might not have the nice LE take your firearm in the first place.

    ipse
    I rereading your post I quoted I see where you were making a paraphrase or suggestion for another. That being said----

    While cops MAY frequently and even often seize someones property and make them prove "ownership" before returning same to the person said property was seized from it Don't make that action proper, legal, or Constitutional IMO! It should NEVER be my responsibility to prove to ANY LEO that ANY item in my possession is lawfully in my possession. IF the LEO has some RAS or even PC to believe it is otherwise he MUST prove it---- IT CAN'T BE my responsibility to PROVE to said OFFICER at the side of the road or other location where I am present to Prove my lawful possession or my lack of felon status!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    This is great information I never knew about being prepared to prove such ownership of your own property even when legally purchased. Great food for thought. I know this topic is like maybe considered a gray area but trying to specifically figure how one should maintain their state ID and permit to carry when transitioning into homelessness who is pre-legal before I.e. Divorce or loss of property ect, and still be able to maintain legal status to carry and or of possession while living "mobile" or "couch hopping".

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    Your (divorce) attorney may provide valuable advice. As attorney-in-fact, its address may suffice.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 07-31-2016 at 07:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Part of your premise imposes an attitude I and many others here find problematic-- It is not my responsibilty to prove I am the legal posessor of any item including firearms even if i am homeless or indigent. If a LEO has at minimum RAS that a specific firearm in my possession is not "legally" in my posession he must prove it --not the other way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    I rereading your post I quoted I see where you were making a paraphrase or suggestion for another. That being said----

    While cops MAY frequently and even often seize someones property and make them prove "ownership" before returning same to the person said property was seized from it Don't make that action proper, legal, or Constitutional IMO! It should NEVER be my responsibility to prove to ANY LEO that ANY item in my possession is lawfully in my possession. IF the LEO has some RAS or even PC to believe it is otherwise he MUST prove it---- IT CAN'T BE my responsibility to PROVE to said OFFICER at the side of the road or other location where I am present to Prove my lawful possession or my lack of felon status!
    first, i never said the nice LE(s) actions were proper, legal, or any of the other rhetoric being thrown around.

    second, i am stating, the nice LE(s) DO IT w/o RAS or PC ~ period! Citizens are left to fend for their themselves through the judicial channels to get their property back. in the case about firearms, the truly disgusting factor is that JQPublic hands over their firearms, w/o hesitation, under the misused guise of 'officer safety'.

    third, you changed the parameter through the use of 'at the side of the road'

    fourth, the OP started thread by discussing the consideration of a homeless individual w/a firearm permit. there is a high probability the permit is invalid due to incorrect address. same could be true of the their DL. your continued statement the nice LEs need RAS/PC...let's see, homeless individual w/possibly sloppily dress, bad hygiene, vehicle is trashed, gets stopped, shows DL w/incorrect address all the while trying to explain why they are homeless, then the nice LE moves to wanting to search the vehicle, then the discussion about firearms and permit w/incorrect address is shown and the chatter about being homeless starts again (at this point all the RAS/PC from the nice LE's perspective is there) so now the firearms are taken for officer safety, then firearms are checked in the database...

    fifth, you have valid DL, Permit, possibly good hygiene & appearance and nothing to explain on your proffered documents which wouldn't raise the specter of RAS/PC to the nice LE to continue even wanting to consider a search of your vehicle.

    btw, how would homeless individual vehicle be handled if there is no permanent address. yet another facet leading to increasing the nice LE's perception they have RAS/PC to screw with the homeless individual.

    ipse

    btw...thanks for a discussion w/o name calling nor degrading commentary, it is appreciated.
    Last edited by solus; 07-31-2016 at 09:58 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Does anyone know if other states have actual statutes of similar situation dealing with pre/post-legal valid identification of becoming homeless?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thewayiseeit240 View Post
    Does anyone know if other states have actual statutes of similar situation dealing with pre/post-legal valid identification of becoming homeless?
    pm sent
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    uh, if the vagrant has no 'address' then they have no permit, per sub 7 quote: 7a. Change of address; loss or destruction of permit. (a) Within 30 days after changing permanent address...
    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=624.714

    btw, if the indigent has no 'address' you also do not have a viable driver's license per MN statutes 171.11 DUPLICATE LICENSE; CHANGE OF DOMICILE OR NAME https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=171.11

    since you have changed the parameter(s) and thrown $$$ into the equation, i know of several folk across the country who quietly (read surreptitiously) live in their rented storage shed (down from a fast food) with their belongings. (please note I am not advocating any breaking of private agreements nor community's legal statutes made with the lessor of the storage shed, just stating my knowledge of certain situations)

    i have also known of folk permanently negotiating a motel room (for years actually in once case) which would provide you an email addy to update Firearm & DL permits.

    bottom line, the citizen you are referencing has no requirement to turn in their invalid permits nor their possibly invalid driver's license.

    ipse
    171.11 DUPLICATE LICENSE; CHANGE OF DOMICILE OR NAME.

    When any person, after applying for or receiving a driver's license, shall change permanent domicile from the address named in such application or in the license issued to the person, or shall change a name by marriage or otherwise, such person shall, within 30 days thereafter, apply for a duplicate driver's license upon a form furnished by the department and pay the required fee. The application or duplicate license shall show both the licensee's old address and new address or the former name and new name as the case may be.
    "Permanent domicile" or "domicile" is not defined the statutes. If the statute doesn't define the word and the statute doesn't authorize an agency the authority to define the word then its ordinary dictionary definition must be used.

    Minnesota Administrative Rules defines the term "domicile," but this definition is for revenue purposes only.
    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules?id=...DOMICILE+means

    So having a residence in Minnesota is not good enough to get a driver license.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    "Permanent domicile" or "domicile" is not defined the statutes. If the statute doesn't define the word and the statute doesn't authorize an agency the authority to define the word then its ordinary dictionary definition must be used.

    Minnesota Administrative Rules defines the term "domicile," but this definition is for revenue purposes only.
    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules?id=...DOMICILE+means

    So having a residence in Minnesota is not good enough to get a driver license.
    tks CoL for that...i sometimes forget the word home is not defined in legalese as 'home'...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Seems like the odds are against the individual(s) that don't conform to society. Or what about individuals who sell their home for an RV or travel around with those mini trailer homes, and live lot to lot the rest of their life? I'm sure they at least have a p.o. box. Still maintain valid drivers license, insurance ect but I guess they would not be able to travel around with a permit to carry cards or or even permit to purchase and have a firearm in their RV or mini trailer home, let alone legally in their possession.
    Can you have a valid drivers license with p.o. box?
    Last edited by thewayiseeit240; 08-01-2016 at 12:43 PM.

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    Minnesota Department of Public Safety Identification Requirements

    Minnesota Rules Parts 7410.0100 to 7410.0600

    https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/dvs/for...ts_English.pdf

    The words residence or address do not occur.

    In the Minnesota Administrative Rules Part 7410.0100 §Subp. 12.

    Residence address and permanent mailing address. For purposes of drivers' licenses, enhanced drivers' licenses, permits, identification cards, and enhanced identification cards, "residence address" and "permanent mailing address" mean the postal address of the permanent domicile within this state where an individual:
    A. resides;
    B. intends to reside within 30 calendar days after the date of application; or
    C. intends to return whenever absent.

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/?id=7410.0100
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-01-2016 at 01:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Minnesota Rules Parts 7410.0100 to 7410.0600

    https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/dvs/for...ts_English.pdf

    The words residence or address do not occur.

    In the Minnesota Administrative Rules Part 7410.0100 §Subp. 12.

    Residence address and permanent mailing address. For purposes of drivers' licenses, enhanced drivers' licenses, permits, identification cards, and enhanced identification cards, "residence address" and "permanent mailing address" mean the postal address of the permanent domicile within this state where an individual:
    A. resides;
    B. intends to reside within 30 calendar days after the date of application; or
    C. intends to return whenever absent.

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/?id=7410.0100
    As I have said thousands of times - the three most important things in law is Definition, definition and definition.
    They don't define "permanent domicile." What is a "permanent domicile"?

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