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Thread: Am I required to notify passenger of a dash cam?

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    Regular Member J1MB0B's Avatar
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    Am I required to notify passenger of a dash cam?

    I've been driving for Uber and Lyft for a while now. I have a dash cam with front and rear facing cameras in my car. Am I required to verbally notify passengers that they are being recorded?
    I have small stickers on the camera and on the windows that say "Audio\Video recording in progress". The issue there is, I drive mostly at night and nobody see's them in the dark. Out of 500ish rides, I have only had two people, in the last week, get upset because I didn't tell them and get their permission to record them.
    Uber and Lyft both say follow state laws, so no help there.
    I thought I read somewhere that if its obvious that you are recording, no notice is needed. I can't remember where that came from, attorney general's opinion maybe? If that's the case, the thing is pretty obvious. Its big, has a red and green flashing light on it, you cant miss it. Especially at night.
    I guess the real question is, are my stickers good enough, or do I need to verbally announce the recording?
    And, yes, I have read through all of RCW 9.73.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Depends on the state laws in Washington, I would say no since taking a taxi is not considered private. If you have what is termed a private conversation then it might require it. My recommendation would be put a sign on the dash that the passenger can read, that would fulfill your obligation to notify.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    this is a stretch...however, RCW 9.73.030 talks about the recording of 'conversations'
    quote: (b) Private conversation, by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record or transmit such conversation regardless how the device is powered or actuated without first obtaining the consent of all the persons engaged in the conversation. unquote

    olde 2012 discussion seems to bear out my initial assessment: http://community.lawyers.com/forums/t/122677.aspx

    see big bend CC policy paragraph 2.3 & 2.3.1 http://www.bigbend.edu/wp-content/up...as-2-23-15.pdf

    bbcc flat out stated their cams do not record audio...

    i am unable to find anything in RCW regarding video surveillance statutes.

    hope that assists your decision making

    ipse
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCW
    RCW 9.73.030 Intercepting, recording, or divulging private communication—Consent required—Exceptions.
    (1) ...it shall be unlawful for any individual... to ... record any:
    ...
    (b) Private conversation ... without first obtaining the consent of all the persons engaged in the conversation.
    ...
    (3) ...consent shall be considered obtained whenever one party has announced to all other parties engaged in the communication or conversation, in any reasonably effective manner, that such communication or conversation is about to be recorded or transmitted: PROVIDED, That if the conversation is to be recorded that said announcement shall also be recorded.
    It appears that you need to be quite clear that they are being recorded. I do not know if video-only is included in your law. I snipped it for relevancy and added an underline to the key word, but now you know where to go if you want to make sure I didn't snip something that affects you.
    Last edited by MAC702; 08-01-2016 at 11:02 AM.
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    Regular Member J1MB0B's Avatar
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    It does record audio. I am fully aware of RCW 9.73.030. There are stickers in and on the car stating that there is audio and video recording in progress, a total of 4 of them, on the dash cam itself, and on all three door windows used by passengers. My question is, is signage enough to satisfy the notification requirement in RCW 9.73.030?

    Reading trough the RCW again I missed this tidbit before:

    (3) Where consent by all parties is needed pursuant to this chapter, consent shall be considered obtained whenever one party has announced to all other parties engaged in the communication or conversation, in any reasonably effective manner, that such communication or conversation is about to be recorded or

    I would venture to say that a sticker or sign would be reasonably effective.
    Last edited by J1MB0B; 08-01-2016 at 11:25 AM.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    NOTICE: By entering this vehicle you consent to the recording of all conversation, private or public.

    I would plaster this notice on the windows, dash and back seat.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J1MB0B View Post
    It does record audio. I am fully aware of RCW 9.73.030. There are stickers in and on the car stating that there is audio and video recording in progress, a total of 4 of them, on the dash cam itself, and on all three door windows used by passengers. My question is, is signage enough to satisfy the notification requirement in RCW 9.73.030?

    Reading trough the RCW again I missed this tidbit before:

    (3) Where consent by all parties is needed pursuant to this chapter, consent shall be considered obtained whenever one party has announced to all other parties engaged in the communication or conversation, in any reasonably effective manner, that such communication or conversation is about to be recorded or

    I would venture to say that a sticker or sign would be reasonably effective.
    Yes, signage is notice.

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    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    This is a public business transaction. As such passengers (customers) have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decklin View Post
    This is a public business transaction. As such passengers (customers) have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
    i am sure somewhere attached to this tidbit knowledge was stored is a cite somewhere which lends credence to the information.

    ipse
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decklin View Post
    This is a public business transaction. As such passengers (customers) have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
    Depends on the transaction, a doctors exam is a business transaction. I would not consider a transaction inside of a vehicle public. Sometimes inside of a building may not be public. Recording from outside a vehicle would be legal, IMO, private conversation within a vehicle no. It is very possible that business may be conducted by electronic device, phone, or in person that is private. When hiring a contractor for a service there is an expectation of privacy.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 08-01-2016 at 01:16 PM.
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    (3) Where consent by all parties is needed pursuant to this chapter, consent shall be considered obtained whenever one party has announced to all other parties engaged in the communication or conversation, in any reasonably effective manner, that such communication or conversation is about to be recorded or transmitted: PROVIDED, That if the conversation is to be recorded that said announcement shall also be recorded.

    Going further on the statue .. you must record that you are recording. So "consent" includes notification if notification is recorded.

    Looks like you'll need to record you telling them that the camera is running and will record.

    It goes state by state ... usually all telephone recordings must be consented to (federal law) but face to face ? Vast differences in states to it being OK and the criminal/civil aspects of recordings.


    Of course, IANAL .. and advise you to seek out further case law and other issues ... maybe contact your legislature and have the law amended to exclude vehicle cams (if not already?).
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 08-01-2016 at 01:20 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    (3) --snipped--

    It goes state by state ... usually all telephone recordings must be consented to (federal law) but face to face ? Vast differences in states to it being OK and the criminal/civil aspects of recordings.
    Virginia is a 'one party consent' state and you are one party.

    There are other states with similar laws.

    http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/virginia-recording-law
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    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Depends on the transaction, a doctors exam is a business transaction. I would not consider a transaction inside of a vehicle public. Sometimes inside of a building may not be public. Recording from outside a vehicle would be legal, IMO, private conversation within a vehicle no. It is very possible that business may be conducted by electronic device, phone, or in person that is private. When hiring a contractor for a service there is an expectation of privacy.
    Doctors exams are covered under HIPPA.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decklin View Post
    Doctors exams are covered under HIPPA.
    And they would still be covered if there was no HIPPA. The reception area of a lawyers office is not covered under HIPPA, but is public, any conversation or payment done in this area is private. Anytime there is a private conversation for any reason, and one uses technology to record the conversation they IMO are in violation of the law. A passenger could be conducting business while en route, or could be having a business conversation while en route. It would be wise to make sure the passenger was notified of the recording, or face a very bad lawsuit.
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decklin View Post
    Doctors exams are covered under HIPPA.
    There is no such thing.

    See HIPAA

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    divorce lawyers would love to get hold of video/audio recordings of their client's partners traveling to clandestine romantic interludes.

    ipse
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    divorce lawyers would love to get hold of video/audio recordings of their client's partners traveling to clandestine romantic interludes.

    ipse
    Except he is not required to share the recordings.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Except he is not required to share the recordings.

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    hummm, subpoena comes immediately to mind...then individual is required to respond to the judiciary.

    ipse
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    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J1MB0B View Post
    Reading trough the RCW again I missed this tidbit before:

    (3) Where consent by all parties is needed pursuant to this chapter, consent shall be considered obtained whenever one party has announced to all other parties engaged in the communication or conversation, in any reasonably effective manner, that such communication or conversation is about to be recorded or

    I would venture to say that a sticker or sign would be reasonably effective.
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by decklin View Post
    This is a public business transaction. As such passengers (customers) have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
    I'm not so sure that I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Going further on the statue .. you must record that you are recording. So "consent" includes notification if notification is recorded.

    Looks like you'll need to record you telling them that the camera is running and will record.
    I think the signage suffices.

    It goes state by state ... usually all telephone recordings must be consented to (federal law) but face to face ? Vast differences in states to it being OK and the criminal/civil aspects of recordings.
    Consent under federal law is required by only one party. FBI agents frequently record their sole consent prior to entering into and recording an undercover activity or clandestine meeting, but do not need nor seek the consent of the other party(s).
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

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    Regular Member J1MB0B's Avatar
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    Thanks for the input guys, looks like I m sticking with the window stickers.
    If someone wants to subpoena the footage, they better do it quick. It records on a loop in 2 minute increments, so unless I decide to keep some of it, each 2 minute file gets erased and a new one takes its place evey 7-8ish hours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rapgood View Post
    <snip>


    Consent under federal law is required by only one party. FBI agents frequently record their sole consent prior to entering into and recording an undercover activity or clandestine meeting, but do not need nor seek the consent of the other party(s).
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2511

    I stand corrected ... subsection (d) of linked code ^^

    (d) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter for a person not acting under color of law to intercept a wire, oral, or electronic communication where such person is a party to the communication or where one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception unless such communication is intercepted for the purpose of committing any criminal or tortious act in violation of the Constitution or laws of the United States or of any State.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Glad this appears to be settled.

    On a footnote....
    When I was an Army Field Recruiter, I had many, many telephone conversations with people who would hear what they wanted and not necessarily what I actually said. Army regulation said I could not use recordings of conversations. I recorded every gorram thing. ALL conversations were recorded. In Army courts, I could use a written transcript of the conversation only, as evidence. That is unless my word was rejected to "memory". At that time, the recording could be brought in to verify me and my recollection, and not being used as other evidence. Worked for me.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Glad this appears to be settled.

    On a footnote....
    When I was an Army Field Recruiter, I had many, many telephone conversations with people who would hear what they wanted and not necessarily what I actually said. Army regulation said I could not use recordings of conversations. I recorded every gorram thing. ALL conversations were recorded. In Army courts, I could use a written transcript of the conversation only, as evidence. That is unless my word was rejected to "memory". At that time, the recording could be brought in to verify me and my recollection, and not being used as other evidence. Worked for me.
    What kind of cases did you participate in relating to your work as a recruiter ? Guy's complaining about the lack of steak being served at dinner (or steak and eggs at breakfast)? Hey, its the Army, not the Air Force !

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    What kind of cases did you participate in relating to your work as a recruiter ? Guy's complaining about the lack of steak being served at dinner (or steak and eggs at breakfast)? Hey, its the Army, not the Air Force !
    Thread drift? or just off the doggone rails?

    And it wasn't even funny!
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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    What kind of cases did you participate in relating to your work as a recruiter ? Guy's complaining about the lack of steak being served at dinner (or steak and eggs at breakfast)? Hey, its the Army, not the Air Force !
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Thread drift? or just off the doggone rails?

    And it wasn't even funny!
    yes,,, thread drift... But

    yes,,,, that was funny!!

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    We got the best of the best stuff they were supposed to be getting,, they still got lots of the best stuff..
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