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Heat in Virginia leads to cops violating 4th amend to hand out ice cream ? Whaat?

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Cite please.

Now you are trolling folks...

No. The troll is those who abuse the forum rules. Please note the actual rules about citations:


(5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available, is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

There is no rule or requirement to provide a citation to every statement of opinion regarding typical human physical performance, personal observations, or other such matters.

A few members have taken to throwing up "Cite please" in areas that have nothing to do with any rule of law as an effort to shut down discussion. For them to try to use the rules in cases clearly outside what the rules require, is a special kind of hypocrisy and probably deceit.

Give it up.

If you wish to disagree, do so directly, respectfully, and honestly.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
okay, i'll give you that, but it's a cop out for him to try and shift it to alcohol.

there's not an arbitrary ban on the number of alcoholic beverages one can consume before becoming "impaired to drive" according to the law, it's a certain percentage.

driver A has 6 drinks, and blows a .07 = legal.

driver B has 3 drinks, and blows a .09 = illegal.

But does a BAC of 0.08% affect every person the same way? Or does the level of impairment vary somewhat from one person to another?

And should it even be about level of impairment or should it be about maintaining some minimum level of driving ability?

I'm sure we can find a professional NASCAR driver who is an experienced drinker who is a better driver with a BAC of 0.11% than are some other drivers when they are stone cold sober.

Does this mean that the 0.08% limit is "entirely arbitrary"?

Or does it mean that mature, sensible folks recognize that there are limits on how fine of resolution we can have in such laws, but that such laws are needed?


banning tint to a certain level is arbitrary-

No more so that picking a single BAC regardless of how any individual is actually affected by that BAC, or what their base level of driving skill is. Sorry, but with 320 million persons in this nation (at a few hundred thousand in our least populated Sate) we don't have the luxury of passing individual laws for each very special snowflake.

We look at norms and averages and typical. We try to build in a modest margin of safety. And we pass laws based on that. Snowflakes will just have to learn to adjust....or choose to move somewhere where they don't have to co-exist peacefully and safely with millions of others.

if you really want to use alcohol as an excuse, then you can honestly say any impairment should be illegal: texting, putting on makeup, drinking a soda, eating, talking to someone in passenger seat, having tint, having a brakelight out, needing an oil change, having bad brakes, having a bad transmission, etc while driving...they are all impairments that affect one's ability to perform effectively. (although all at different levels of impairment.)

For those too young to remember, at one time, "I didn't mean to crash, I just had a couple of drinks in me," was a mitigating factor rather than an aggravating factor. As we recognized the danger of driving under the influence, laws evolved to reflect that. As portable TVs became a reality, we imposed limits on where such screens could be installed or under what conditions they could be used in cars lest they distract the driver. In like manner, we are currently coming to recognize the danger of talking on cell phones, texting, or surfing the web while driving. Laws regarding cell phone use (including bans on non-hands-free cell phone use), texting, and other smartphone use while driving are currently evolving, but generally moving towards limiting or banning such activities while driving. Some States now have a general catch-all "Distracted Driving" law that allows citations for any activity that causes objective, observable problems while driving.

But the real key is recognizing the different levels of impairment. A BAC of 0.04% creates more impairment than a BAC of 0.0%. But the impairment is low enough not to materially contribute to the risk of a crash. Ditto the typical talking to a passenger in the vehicle. Needing an oil change has no material affect on driving ability or safety of the car unless you get the extreme corner case of seizing an engine. Rare enough not to warrant a law. Bad brakes, bad tranny, missing lights, etc, are all material dangers that can result in equipment failure citations.


so, since any number of things can effectively impair somoene's ability to perform (drive effectively), thus affecting the safety of your family on the road, driving should be illegal in and of itself. right?

In case it isn't clear yet, I reject the "all or nothing" position put forth too often by l/Libertarians, anarchists, and other snowflakes.

I don't need some grand, unified theory of socio-political thought in order to know that some things work and others don't, even if some folks have a hard time seeing the shades of gray or hues of color that exist between them, rather than the hard and fast black and white lines with which they are comfortable.

To those who don't understand the difference between 0.04% BAC and 0.15% BAC (whether neo-Prohibitionist or drunken idiot) I say simply, "grow up." Ditto for those who pretend not to see the difference between chatting with a passenger in the car and burying the driver's face in a smart phone texting.

Charles
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
No. The troll...snipp

is a special kind of hypocrisy and probably deceit.

Give it up.

If you wish to disagree, do so directly, respectfully, and honestly.

Charles

mate, your last statement is truly a special kind of hypocrisy and definitely in your case stated deceitfully as you continue to insist to degrade anyone who challenges charle's epistles.

this is especially true as you consistently pull emotional & biased donkey manure out and attempt to push as if it came from the Mtn.

this and only this fact is the reason, as a forum member you refuse to provide forum readers the respectful courtesy to provide where you got your subject matter you are posting.

the truly sad concept...you honestly believe the what you posted...

ipse
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
For context:
Or maybe, those who really want to protect the privacy of their belongings would do something more than just rely on window tint. ... Charles
...
A few members have taken to throwing up "Cite please" in areas that have nothing to do with any rule of law as an effort to shut down discussion. For them to try to use the rules in cases clearly outside what the rules require, is a special kind of hypocrisy and probably deceit.

Give it up.

If you wish to disagree, do so directly, respectfully, and honestly.

Charles
Again, please provide a cite that cutting the available light by 30% (~70% VLT) creates an unacceptable risk to the rest of society.

Utah:

Windshield Non-reflective tint is allowed along the top of the windshield above the manufacturer's AS-1 line.
Front Side Windows Must allow more than a total of 43% light in. ~50% VLT
Back Side Windows Any VLT can be applied legally on this window. *(MPVs allow any light transmission)
Rear Window Any VLT can be applied legally on this window. *(MPVs allow any light transmission)
It appears that Ohio permits the windshield to be tinted to 70% VLT (+/- 3%).

Your demand for respect and honesty rings hollow when you refuse to be respectful and/or honest during a discussion.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Ignoring what current law is about window tint in any jurisdiction, the point remains, of course, that cars driven on public roads actually need to be safe to drive. ...

Charles
Ignoring the law on window tinting? Window tinting applied to a vehicle within the confines of the law(s) in every jurisdiction does not make any vehicle driven on the public roads unsafe.

Your statement (opinion) is why I now consider you to be trolling folks.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
For context: Again, please provide a cite that cutting the available light by 30% (~70% VLT) creates an unacceptable risk to the rest of society.

It appears that Ohio permits the windshield to be tinted to 70% VLT (+/- 3%).

Your demand for respect and honesty rings hollow when you refuse to be respectful and/or honest during a discussion.
Oh, by the way, there are window tint laws in every state, and you made a claim regarding tinting levels, some folks may be mislead by your contention...just sayin.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Really? Like nearby Trans 305.29  Steering and suspension. [ ... ] (9) No vehicle may be operated noticeably out of alignment.

The Wisconsin Uniform Traffic Citation does not cite violation of a regulation, but only of statute or ordinance violated. "345.11  Uniform traffic citation. [ ... ] The form or automated format shall provide for ... the offense alleged, the time and place of the offense, the section of the statute or ordinance violated, ..."
http://wislawjournal.com/2010/01/04/tinted-window-not-grounds-for-detention/
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
In Virginia, a statute is a law passed by the legislative branch; a regulation is a rule imposed by an agency of the executive branch.

The link provided would seem to be part of the Administrative Code = a regulation.

Depends on how one wishes to use the term "regulation" ... ie something that regulates could be almost anything.
To the contrary, many states make a legal distinction.

Virginia Administrative Code
The Virginia Administrative Code contains the regulations adopted by state agencies in the Commonwealth of Virginia. There are 24 titles, each representing a subject category with agencies assigned to the appropriate title. Updated daily.
http://law.lis.virginia.gov/
 
Last edited:

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
For context: Again, please provide a cite that cutting the available light by 30% (~70% VLT) creates an unacceptable risk to the rest of society.

It appears that Ohio permits the windshield to be tinted to 70% VLT (+/- 3%).

Your demand for respect and honesty rings hollow when you refuse to be respectful and/or honest during a discussion.

Ignoring the law on window tinting? Window tinting applied to a vehicle within the confines of the law(s) in every jurisdiction does not make any vehicle driven on the public roads unsafe.

Your statement (opinion) is why I now consider you to be trolling folks.

You've got a lot of nerve and very poor manner "OC for ME".

You resort to the personal insult of "troll" over a disagreement with a particular number and then have the chuztpa to expect me to play google for you. Cite yourself. As explained, I'm under no obligation to provide cites except when asserting something regarding the law.

You are looking for disagreements and to prove you are right, rather than attempting to have an honest discussion. You're acting a lot like himself alone, the not savant.

If you believe that a 30% tint doesn't impair driving, don't coyly demand a cite. Simply, directly, and honestly provide a counter claim. Do you think a windshield can be safely tinted to block 90% of the light (10% transmission)? What about 99% with only 1% light transmission?

Because in context, that is the point; and that point should be clear to anyone with a reading compression above the 6th grade. If my 30% number is too low, so be it. 99% is not too low. A windshield that transmits only 1% of the light would make a car unsafe to operate under virtually any typical condition. Whether the law should set the limit at 80% light transmission through the windshield, or 70%, or 50% isn't the material aspect of the discussion. Which again, is obvious to anyone following along who isn't simply trying to pick a nit and prove how smart he is. We don't need an egghead on this kind of discussion.

Clearly, you are not interested in contributing anything materially relevant to the discussion. Also, you've gotten a burr under your saddle regarding me. Get over it, or ignore me.

As for the Utah law you cited, you might notice that such dark tint is only allowed on the very top portion of the windshield (in practice, about the top 4 inches) which are well above the driver's line-of-sight for driving. That tint acts as a kind of permanent sunshade at the top of the windshield. That it is limited to the very top of the windshield only kind of backs up my claim, rather than backing up yours.

"Just saying" as some are fond of saying.

Charles
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
To remind readers:
Or maybe, those who really want to protect the privacy of their belongings would do something more than just rely on window tint. After all, cars registered to drive on public roads do actually need to be safe to operate on the roads and that limits how dark window tint can be even if the big, nasty, evil, illegitimate government didn't impose limits. ...

You've got a lot of nerve and very poor manner "OC for ME".
The nerve to challenge unsubstantiated claims? Yes.

I will defer to others to decide who is displaying poor manners.

You resort to the personal insult of "troll" over a disagreement with a particular number and then have the chuztpa to expect me to play google for you. Cite yourself. As explained, I'm under no obligation to provide cites except when asserting something regarding the law.
Contribute to this discussion in a reasonable, rational, and responsible manner and the term troll will be retracted.

You are looking for disagreements and to prove you are right, rather than attempting to have an honest discussion. You're acting a lot like himself alone, the not savant.
I provided cites that support your contention that windshield tinting can create a unacceptable risk to the driving public. You could not logically support your security/privacy contention so you resorted to the driving safety canard.

If you believe that a 30% tint doesn't impair driving, don't coyly demand a cite. Simply, directly, and honestly provide a counter claim.
I made no counter claim, I asked that you substantiate your claim(s) via a cite.

Do you think a windshield can be safely tinted to block 90% of the light (10% transmission)? What about 99% with only 1% light transmission?
It is not what I think but what information that I provided that undermines your contentions. The burden remains on you to substantiate your ~30% window tinting safety claim and that dark window tinting does not providing effective/adequate security/privacy.

Because in context, that is the point; and that point should be clear to anyone with a reading compression above the 6th grade. If my 30% number is too low, so be it. 99% is not too low. A windshield that transmits only 1% of the light would make a car unsafe to operate under virtually any typical condition. Whether the law should set the limit at 80% light transmission through the windshield, or 70%, or 50% isn't the material aspect of the discussion. Which again, is obvious to anyone following along who isn't simply trying to pick a nit and prove how smart he is. We don't need an egghead on this kind of discussion.
You have the prerogative to ignore the facts I provided.

Clearly, you are not interested in contributing anything materially relevant to the discussion. Also, you've gotten a burr under your saddle regarding me. Get over it, or ignore me.
Ironic that you charge me with not providing anything materially relevant to the discussion.

As for the Utah law you cited, ...
The various state laws address more than the AS-1 line requirement.

When I challenge your position you take umbrage and proceed to deflect, insult, and impugn.

Window tinting can provide adequate security/privacy, window tinting darker than 30% (70% VLT), other that the windshield, does not create a unacceptable risk to the rest of society.
 
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