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Thread: Have an accidental discharge and they want to convict you of something?

  1. #1
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    Have an accidental discharge and they want to convict you of something?

    Call these guys as witnesses....

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/4202425-1...officer-shoots

    * everyone has an accidental discharge
    * its no big deal

    etc etc etc

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    "Almost every officer in their career has an accidental discharge," [Salt Lake City police Lt. Michael Hatch] said.
    Oh, really?
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-07-2016 at 01:17 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, really?
    Perfect defense witnesses, yes?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Unless the gun had a mechanical failure, they are correctly defined as negligent discharges.

    There is a reason for that.....and it is no accident.

    Keep your bogger hook off the trigger until you wish to shoot!
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Make your comment there.

    You are preaching to the choir here!

    The issue is in the term NEGLIGENT. If there had been collateral damage, wounding or, heaven forbid, an innocent killed, euphemism and mea culpa's would not call the bullet back.

    I have practiced many times what SOME officers do and have never had even an inadvertent shot fired. Don't be a cop****** apologist, they are mere public servants, and the lowliest citizen is a public master.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-07-2016 at 01:51 PM. Reason: too close
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Sure, nothing to see here, move along......If you happen to be a female sheriff's deputy and go to a dentist appointment, need to go pee and in the process of taking your firearm off it discharges through the bathroom wall and into the waiting room and then into the receptionists area all that will happen is desk duty......for 2 weeks. If that were you or I.......you know what would happen.

    If you happen to be an off duty police officer and run a few errands with your 2 young children under the ages of 10, leave them in the car while you run into the store and the son manages to get into the glove box where you keep you firearm and then proceeds to shoot his little sister dead.......all that will happen is the prosecutor will say that you have suffered enough with the loss of your child............If that were you or I you know what would happen.

    If you happen to be a retired LEO and get a job as a middle school DARE/liaison officer and use the rest room and leave your firearm behind on the TP holder, a student finds it and alerts a teacher who then secures it, all you have to do is lie that it wasn't loaded (anyone know of any cop who goes around with an unloaded pistol while on the job?) get your gun back and report to work again on Monday. If that were you or I you know what would happen.

    Again, if you are an off duty police officer and go to home depot, use the rest room and leave your firearm behind on the TP holder, a boy goes into the stall to use it and sees it, tells his dad who is with him and dad does not touch it and calls the police, they come get it and tell dad that they will certainly deal severely with whom ever left their gun where a child could get it...........until they find out it was one of their own.

    And yet they are the trained professionals who are they only one that can be trusted with a firearm. Very sad.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    ken56, do not hold back...tells us how you really feel...

    ipse
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    ken56, do not hold back...tells us how you really feel...

    ipse
    I recognize his examples as real incidents. So it's not how he -feels-, he's relating the truth.

    The "truth" is it's not really the officers who are ultimately at fault. Yes they should be fired because of these things, but the point is, upper management is allowing this to happen and putting them back on duty. Upper management is at fault. Some people are careless or irresponsible and should not be carrying guns. Just because you are an LEO does not absolve you and management should be removing these folks.

    Why aren't they? It's because 1) they support the 'you vs us' mentality, and 2) they are concerned about their own political future and do not care about actual day-to-day policing which is the job of upper management. They want the cheapest personnel possible, pay them as little as possible and will look the other way if they can. They also hire individuals knowingly onto the force to serve as 'loose cannons' to instill fear into their citizens and to act as 'disposable enforcers'.

    How do I know this? I know some LEOs, have been gym partners with one and have read the insiders tales in the books that another friend has published. Fortunately I have not actually had to experience any of this, mainly because I am law-abiding to the nth degree.

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    conti

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    I recognize his examples as real incidents. So it's not how he -feels-, he's relating the truth.

    The "truth" is it's not really the officers who are ultimately at fault. Yes they should be fired because of these things, but the point is, upper management is allowing this to happen and putting them back on duty. Upper management is at fault. Some people are careless or irresponsible and should not be carrying guns. Just because you are an LEO does not absolve you and management should be removing these folks.

    Why aren't they? It's because 1) they support the 'you vs us' mentality, and 2) they are concerned about their own political future and do not care about actual day-to-day policing which is the job of upper management. They want the cheapest personnel possible, pay them as little as possible and will look the other way if they can. They also hire individuals knowingly onto the force to serve as 'loose cannons' to instill fear into their citizens and to act as 'disposable enforcers'.

    How do I know this? I know some LEOs, have been gym partners with one and have read the insiders tales in the books that another friend has published. Fortunately I have not actually had to experience any of this, mainly because I am law-abiding to the nth degree.
    all Ken56's examples of officer mishandling of their firearms, and some might say the officer and his son mentioned in his first example has to live w/the mental anguish, but i am sure will be getting mental health psychotherapy and ultimately retired to enjoy his pension. but...

    quote: Chicago's police superintendent on Saturday suggested that an officer's body camera wasn't turned on when he fatally shot a black teen last month because the officer had only received it about a week earlier and wasn't yet proficient in using it. "They had had those cameras maybe about a week. ... There's going to be a learning curve," Johnson said of the body cameras. unquote https://www.yahoo.com/news/chicago-p...163332091.html

    the assistant chief of fayetteville was injured when her personal firearm accidentally discharged at home. No one else was hurt. Officials did not provide more details on the incident.


    quote: Portland Police Chief Larry O'Dea has decided to retire, ending a nearly 30-year career amid criminal and internal investigations for an off-duty shooting of a friend during an eastern Oregon camping trip, his attorney confirmed Sunday. Mayor Charlie Hales, who serves as police commissioner, is expected to make the announcement Monday morning. Hales will appoint a captain someone other than the four assistant chiefs under an administrative investigation themselves...unquote

    sorry the PD's upper mgmt isn't allowing this misadventures to 'happen' as here are three prime examples where upper management is causing the issue(s). further the blue code is perpetuating the miss adventures to continue.
    so yes it is the officer's fault...

    i am glad the your friend who wrote an insider tell-all provided such an exemplary insight in the inner workings of their PD to impress you, tho, considering it is such a current money making scheme i am sure his stories are most believable, exciting perspective of being a nice LE.

    here is what one author recently who retired in 03, and 2016 and climbs on the bandwagon 13 years after for one sole purpose ~ $$$$$$stated while pushing his PD insider tell all, quote: The Job: True Tales From The Life Of A New York City Cop author: Yeah, absolutely. You know, people watch the news, and, you know, it is - it's a bad time for police across the country right now That's why I hope, like - when you read my book, I think you get a better idea of the day-to-day life of what a cop goes through out on patrol. And I hope it sheds a little bit of light compared to, like, what people see on the news constantly.. unquote
    http://www.npr.org/2016/05/06/476890...ntense-stories

    no...leaving a firearm unattended is but the tip...

    my examples are not lower echelon workabees and i have grown weary of the finger pointing of who's fault it is concerning citizens deaths at the hands of those public servants who are to protect and service...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Cop in Monroe Washington shot himself in the head when they switched to GLOCK. Didn't die, last I heard he was still working.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    ...Golck...who wudda thunk it...
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    ...Golck...who wudda thunk it...
    Prolly the same people who wudda spelled it that way.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    The officer whose name was not released was pursuing a suspect near 1300 N. 1900 West about 5:30 a.m. when he accidentally discharged the gun, said Salt Lake City police Lt. Michael Hatch.
    Must be a new version of "port arms" that I ain't heard about, yet.

    Or, maybe he had one of those new-fangled dangly strap things that allows you to let go of the rifle* while the strap suspends it from your shoulder, muzzle down. I can see the possibility of the trigger catching on some sort of belt equipment and...


    *I use the word rifle generously. No self-respecting WWII or Korea vet would elevate an AR platform to the status of rifle. Carbine at best.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Must be a new version of "port arms" that I ain't heard about, yet.

    Or, maybe he had one of those new-fangled dangly strap things that allows you to let go of the rifle* while the strap suspends it from your shoulder, muzzle down. I can see the possibility of the trigger catching on some sort of belt equipment and...


    *I use the word rifle generously. No self-respecting WWII or Korea vet would elevate an AR platform to the status of rifle. Carbine at best.
    There are AR pistols, AR carbines, and AR rifles. Much depends on barrel length and stock configuration.

    The bolded part of your quote is one of the reasons why we have Forum Rule #14.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I know its easy to armchair quarterback here and I do have the utmost respect for all the police officers that perform their duties with professionalism and courtesy, its a tough job. Its a sucky job. I have friends and family too that are and were officers and have heard a few stories that would raise your hair. Still, would it have been any less tragic if that round would have pierced the wall of a home and killed a child that was sleeping inside, rather than if it had happened in a drive-by by some bad guys? The point that upper management allows it and makes excuses for these "accidents" that you and I would be prosecuted for is not right, and should not be tolerated. There are no "accidents", there is just negligence. Thankfully no one was injured with this one.
    Last edited by Ken56; 08-08-2016 at 08:47 PM.

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    Cop haters are right on this one

    This is downright embarrassing. It was less than two years ago that a a grade school teacher in the SL Metro area had an ND in the faculty toilet.

    She was charged with and took a "no contest" plea-in-abeyance to discharging a firearm in a prohibited area (inside city limits). Cost her about $700 in court fees, plus about $200 to replace the toilet. While she was technically cleared to return to the classroom after some internal school discipline, she resigned her job.

    Technically, Taylorsville is a different city than Salt Lake, with a different city prosecutor. But non-locals would need a map to tell the difference, and State preemption means not much variation in local laws here. For her to get hit with a misdemeanor charge carrying a possible 6 month sentence over an ND while the trained professionals dismiss a similar case less than 24 months later as something that happens to every cop is really inequitable.

    But for once I have to agree with McBeth. The next time an LAC here in Utah is charged following an ND that doesn't hurt anyone except maybe himself, he needs to call Lt. Hatch as a defense witness to testify that these are no big deal and happen to even the most highly trained professionals.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 08-08-2016 at 09:24 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    ^ ^ Cop haters? ^ ^
    Not permitted on OCDO - see rules #6 & #9 of the Forum Rules.

    What we should strive for is equality before the bar.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    ^ ^ Cop haters? ^ ^
    Not permitted on OCDO - see rules #6 & #9 of the Forum Rules.

    What we should strive for is equality before the bar.
    Yes we should.

    To be clear, I do not hate cops. I greatly appreciate the necessity of the work they do and the majority of cops who do that work honorably, honestly, and well.

    To also be clear, it doesn't appear that forum rules ban cop haters (or racists, or anti-religious bigots, or anyone else based on their personally held views). Rather, forum rules impose limits on what views can be expressed or how they can be expressed.

    There can be no doubt that there cop haters (and religion haters and other small-mined bigots) among the regular posters on this forum. Forum rules as enforced by our benevolent and long suffering moderator limit the amount of bile they can spew. But the bigots are among us. And like a stopped watch, sometimes they are correct in their assessment of a situation. This is one, such, rare case, IMO.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There are AR pistols, AR carbines, and AR rifles. Much depends on barrel length and stock configuration.

    The bolded part of your quote is one of the reasons why we have Forum Rule #14.
    <rhetorical questions >: Since when? And, who elevated themselves to making the definitions?

    A Spingfield 1903 in .30-06 is a rifle. An M-1 Garand is a rifle. An M14 in 7.62x54 is a rifle.

    An AR in 5.56 is phhht--a carbine.

    And, don't try the argument that twisty lands-and-grooves makes it a rifle. Under that argument, a Kel-Tec P3AT (.380 caliber) is a rifle. Under that argument, an 1857 Remington cap-and-ball revolver is a rifle.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-08-2016 at 09:30 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    --snipped--

    *I use the word rifle generously. No self-respecting WWII or Korea vet would elevate an AR platform to the status of rifle. Carbine at best.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There are AR pistols, AR carbines, and AR rifles. Much depends on barrel length and stock configuration.

    The bolded part of your quote is one of the reasons why we have Forum Rule #14.
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    <rhetorical questions >: Since when? And, who elevated themselves to making the definitions?

    --snipped--

    An AR in 5.56 is phhht--a carbine.
    You originally stated an AR platform, which is to what I responded. Now you change and try to limit it to 5.56. Shame on you.

    Take note that the following link is based on the AR platform and is definitely not a carbine. Rather it is a rifle.
    "The Ferret50 is a modular weapon system that allows the customer to choose the system componants that best suit the application. We manufacture complete rifles, AR upper conversions and steel lowers."
    http://www.ferret50.com/ferret50_conversion.html

    You have expressed your disdain for moderation, forum rules, and called decisions before. I see that has not changed. Changing quotes, even your own is a violation of Forum Rules.

    I strongly suggest you cease/desist attacking the structure of the administration. You are an excellent researcher but sometimes miss the point of a post.

    Further comments/arguments will be deleted as off topic for this thread - long guns remain outside the intent and purpose of OCDO.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    <snip> The next time an LAC here in Utah is charged following an ND that doesn't hurt anyone except maybe himself, he needs to call Lt. Hatch as a defense witness to testify that these are no big deal and happen to even the most highly trained professionals.

    Charles
    Which was mostly the point ... ID these folks to the community for possible use later. I guess one could use the same technique for other things that policemen have done that non-.govs get charged with too. For the most part, police are governed by the same laws.

    It would be a hoot to parade witness after witness to a accidental discharge (and for clarification for this post ... not talking about gun malfunctions but wherein a discharge by a .gov is considered accidental but the exact same thing for a non-.gov is seen as negligence by our criminal justice system) related case.

    IMO if no one is actually physically injured then its a pure civil matter.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 08-08-2016 at 11:57 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Wont happen...ever. That cop is exempt from the laws that every Utah citizen is subject to who is not a member of the prescribed protected classes.
    Utah Code: Title 76 Utah Criminal Code: Chapter 10 - Offenses Against Public Health, Safety, Welfare, and Morals: Part 5 - Weapons: Section 508 - Discharge of firearm from a vehicle, near a highway, or in direction of any person, building, or vehicle -- Penalties. (Effective 5/13/2014): (4) This section does not apply to a person who: (b) is performing official duties as provided in Section 23-20-1.5 and Subsections 76-10-523(1)(a) through (e) and as otherwise provided by law; or ...

    https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Ch...14040320140513
    Merely a employment matter.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Wont happen...ever. That cop is exempt from the laws that every Utah citizen is subject to who is not a member of the prescribed protected classes. Merely a employment matter.


    In Utah, a cop (or any .gov, state, federal, local for that matter) that is acting wrongly is no longer protected by this exemption. Utah is one state that I know that puts wrongful actions of a .gov to be outside the scope of his employment and special considerations are no longer applicable.

    Its just that your SA/DAs don't want to follow the law. If they are elected then you can ask candidates if they will follow the law or not in these matters...and try to elect ones that will.

    IMO its not simply an employment matter .. the po pos in Utah who violate a law while working no longer have these special protections.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Wont happen...ever. That cop is exempt from the laws that every Utah citizen is subject to who is not a member of the prescribed protected classes. Merely a employment matter.
    I agree it won't happen. I agree it is because the officer is a government employee rather than a commoner.

    I disagree as to the intent and effect of the law. I don't believe an ND while chasing a suspect is part of job responsibilities for a cop.

    Deliberately shooting a bad guy who poses a threat to innocent life and limb is part of job duties and is covered. I don't think an ND is or should be.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  25. #25
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ce-simulation/

    quote- A woman participating in a citizen police academy in central Florida was killed in an accidental shooting Tuesday during a lethal force simulation. ... The woman, one of 35 community members participating inthe two-hour seminar....unquote

    one would think when johnny law is role playing with guns, someone be quick enough to assure the firearm is unloaded?

    apparently not..

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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