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Thread: Richmond city pool 65.870 violation?

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Richmond city pool 65.870 violation?

    I've received word that the Richmond city pool has a sign that reads "no weapons allowed" with a picture of a knife and handgun with the famous red line through it. Do we have any members close by to confirm this? If not, I'll start the open records request toward the end of the week to find out what this is all about.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

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    Does this call for an OC swim? Sorry..

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    Does this call for an OC swim? Sorry..
    Take the young ones (kids & grand kids) - sit around the pool OCing, chatting and watching then frolic.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    My first thought about this was that the sign would really say "No Concealed Weapons". Every swimming pool I have ever see required people to go through a building, with showers and dressing rooms, to enter the pool. I looked to see if Richmond had a "no concealed weapons" ordinance and none is listed, so my theory is shot. While perusing the Richmond ordinances I discovered this:

    § 128.03 RECORDS; DAILY REPORTS TO POLICE DEPARTMENT. (A) All jewelry stores, dealers in precious metals, junk dealers, scrap metal dealers, second hand dealers, and second hand stores, as those terms are defined herein, shall keep a record of their transactions involving the purchase of automobile parts, trailers, or other used motor vehicle parts, electronic communication devices, textbooks, cameras, electronic games or gaming devices, DVD’s, gift cards, watches, coins, knives, jewels, jewelry, precious metals (in whatever form), scrap metal, power tools, televisions, computers and computer equipment, music devices, stereos, musical instruments, and firearms. No such purchase shall be made unless the seller shall present his or her driver’s license or other government identification card. Such records shall contain the following information:

    (1) The name, address, date of birth, telephone number, type of identification card presented, and identification card number;

    (2) Date and time of purchase/exchange of the item;

    (3) A detailed description of the article or articles purchased, including any manufacturer’s name, identification numbers, serial number, model number, any identifying marks, and a description sufficiently detailed to distinguish the specific article from other articles of a like kind;

    (4) The signature of the licensee and the seller, both executed at the time of the purchase;......................................... ........................etc.



    I tried to call Richmond City Manager, Richard Thomas, but he was in a meeting. I'll get with him tomorrow. I intend to tell him about the illegality of this ordinance and once we get that matter straightened out, I'll ask about the pool. I wish I had pictures. I hate to go into these things on nothing but rumors. That has bitten me in my hind parts many times in the past. In this case, since I have a legitimate complaint to start off with, I'll make an exception to my rule to never do that again.



    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-10-2016 at 06:34 PM. Reason: edited color useage to conform to Forum Rule #19
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Gutshot. I did not mean to dump this in your lap. But since you have the ball rolling, how can I help?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
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    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Gutshot. I did not mean to dump this in your lap. But since you have the ball rolling, how can I help?

    You didn't drop this in my lap. The ordinance is a separate issue. I won't even mention the pool signs until the ordinance problem is solved, and not then if you'd like to do it yourself. I don't like not having any proof of the signs, anyway. If they claim the signs don't exist, there is nothing either you or I could say. It does seem silly to go through the whole thing twice, though. I had planned on bringing up the signs, once they agree to amend the ordinance. They should be up to speed on the state law by then. I checked around all over the city's website, including the pages for the parks and the pool rules, and could not find any mention of guns. Pictures of the signs would be nice, but let's just see how big a fight the want make of this. The webpage for the pool says that they will be closed except on weekends, once school starts.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

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    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

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    This thing has gotten really "complicated". I really don't have anything to tell you, except that it is in the works and I expect a resolution, but exactly how or when we will arrive at that resolution is a mystery to me, right now. Is there anybody on this board that lives near Richmond?
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

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    Regular Member LEX_XDM40compact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    This thing has gotten really "complicated". I really don't have anything to tell you, except that it is in the works and I expect a resolution, but exactly how or when we will arrive at that resolution is a mystery to me, right now. Is there anybody on this board that lives near Richmond?
    I am near there and can go by this weekend to snap any photos you may want! Let me know and ill get right on it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LEX_XDM40compact View Post
    I am near there and can go by this weekend to snap any photos you may want! Let me know and ill get right on it!

    That would be great. I need any pictures you can get of the signs at the pool. I especially want any signs that are not at the entrance to buildings
    and in other open areas away from the pool entrance building. I have heard that there are signs on chain link fence around the pool. I'd like pictures that cover enough area so that they show that they are not near buildings and it can not be claimed that they only refer to the building. Also one close up of a sign, so that there is no question about what they say. Thanks. If you have time, I could use pictures of any other signs on other city buildings, like City Hall. Digital picture would be best. Easier to send. When you get them, just PM me and I'll give you my contact info.
    Last edited by gutshot; 09-15-2016 at 01:36 AM.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

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    Regular Member LEX_XDM40compact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post

    That would be great. I need any pictures you can get of the signs at the pool. I especially want any signs that are not at the entrance to buildings
    and in other open areas away from the pool entrance building. I have heard that there are signs on chain link fence around the pool. I'd like pictures that cover enough area so that they show that they are not near buildings and it can not be claimed that they only refer to the building. Also one close up of a sign, so that there is no question about what they say. Thanks. If you have time, I could use pictures of any other signs on other city buildings, like City Hall. Digital picture would be best. Easier to send. When you get them, just PM me and I'll give you my contact info.
    I will head over tomorrow and see what I can find.

    To confirm we are talking about the pool listed as "Paradise Cove Aquatic Center" found at 274 Lake Reba Dr, Richmond, KY?

    Has city hall been flagged to have the same signage? If so can you confirm again its found at 239 W Main St, Richmond, KY 40475

    I will try and get by both locations if city hall is known to have it or if its not to far from each other! I will certainly look for the ones at the pool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LEX_XDM40compact View Post
    I will head over tomorrow and see what I can find.

    To confirm we are talking about the pool listed as "Paradise Cove Aquatic Center" found at 274 Lake Reba Dr, Richmond, KY?

    Has city hall been flagged to have the same signage? If so can you confirm again its found at 239 W Main St, Richmond, KY 40475

    I will try and get by both locations if city hall is known to have it or if its not to far from each other! I will certainly look for the ones at the pool.
    To my knowledge, that is the only city owned swimming pool in Danville. I can't be certain that there are signs on other city property. During a conversation with the city attorney, he said, "Well surely, we can agree that the city has the authority to ban guns in city buildings". I did not respond, because I didn't know if Danville had a city ordinance, I still don't know. I do know that I have looked through all of their published ordinances and I can't find one. This issue may have escalated to more than just the pool. Since you are going to be in town, I thought you might be able to take a look. If you can't, I'll still get by. Thanks for whatever you can do.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    To my knowledge, that is the only city owned swimming pool in Danville. I can't be certain that there are signs on other city property. During a conversation with the city attorney, he said, "Well surely, we can agree that the city has the authority to ban guns in city buildings". I did not respond, because I didn't know if Danville had a city ordinance, I still don't know. I do know that I have looked through all of their published ordinances and I can't find one. This issue may have escalated to more than just the pool. Since you are going to be in town, I thought you might be able to take a look. If you can't, I'll still get by. Thanks for whatever you can do.
    Not in accordance with 65.870 they don't.

    65.870 Local firearms control ordinances prohibited -- Exemption from......


    "(1) No existing or future city, county, urban-county government, charter county, consolidated local government, unified local government, special district, local or regional public or quasi-public agency, board, commission, department, public corporation, or any person acting under the authority of any of these organizations may occupy any part of the field of regulation of the manufacture, sale, purchase, taxation, transfer, ownership, possession, carrying, storage, or transportation of firearms, ammunition, components of firearms, components of ammunition, firearms accessories, or combination thereof."

    "(2) Any existing or future ordinance, executive order, administrative regulation, policy, procedure, rule, or any other form of executive or legislative action in violation of this section or the spirit thereof is hereby declared null, void, and unenforceable."
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 09-17-2016 at 08:35 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post

    Not in accordance with 65.870 they don't.

    65.870 Local firearms control ordinances prohibited -- Exemption from......


    "(1) No existing or future city, county, urban-county government, charter county, consolidated local government, unified local government, special district, local or regional public or quasi-public agency, board, commission, department, public corporation, or any person acting under the authority of any of these organizations may occupy any part of the field of regulation of the manufacture, sale, purchase, taxation, transfer, ownership, possession, carrying, storage, or transportation of firearms, ammunition, components of firearms, components of ammunition, firearms accessories, or combination thereof."

    "(2) Any existing or future ordinance, executive order, administrative regulation, policy, procedure, rule, or any other form of executive or legislative action in violation of this section or the spirit thereof is hereby declared null, void, and unenforceable."
    Well, not really. Check out paragraph (7) of KRS 65.870 and then read KRS 237.115. They "might" have that authority, if they have done their homework. It appear that they might have missed an assignment.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

    Samuel Adams









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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Well, not really. Check out paragraph (7) of KRS 65.870 and then read KRS 237.115. They "might" have that authority, if they have done their homework. It appear that they might have missed an assignment.
    I see were a problem could exist.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I see were a problem could exist.
    They could have some limited authority, if they have jumped through the right hoops. It appears that they have not done that. They have may have ignored the required process or taken short cuts that would invalidate their actions. The trick is to convince them to remove their signs and change their policy and not just, now, jump through those hoops to make their previously illegal actions, legal. Even then, there are limits on their authority and I suspect that those limits have been exceeded, in any case. I'd like to convince them to just do nothing in the area of gun control. Right now, I don't have all the facts, but I am learning more about their actions and intentions every day.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

    Samuel Adams









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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    --snipped-- but I am learning more about their actions and intentions every day.
    Apparently to control and promote their agenda.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    One of the "complictions" involved with this dispute has been that I have never seen the sign at the pool or any pictures of it and don't know whether it covers all guns or just concealed weapons. I didn't know if there was only one sign, if it was inside a building or outside, or if there are signs on other buildings. It turns out that it doesn't make any difference, because Richmond has no ordinance, so the signs would be illegal either way. I have been faced with the problem of explaining that their signs are illegal, because they have no ordinance and then telling them that it is a bad idea to pass an ordinance. A pretty hard sale, to say the least.

    Today I got this from the Richmond City Attorney:


    Dear gutshot:

    The offending sign at the City's Paradise Cove water park facility has been removed. I am unaware of any other City signs relating to firearms which are present elsewhere. Should you learn of any, please do not hesitate to contact me. I do not anticipate that an ordinance restricting firearms in City buildings will be enacted.

    Discussions about the pawnshop ordinance are still underway. This has been a big learning experience for the city government officials at Richmond and I have resorted to "one thing at a time" tactics. I will say that they have all been very, very nice, but very, very uninformed about Ky. gun laws. They are learning, but slowly. They do have a good instructor, though.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

    Samuel Adams









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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Apparently to control and promote their agenda.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lG-snJZIV8

    This what they think will happen LOL ^^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lG-snJZIV8

    This what they think will happen LOL ^^^
    Moron
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

    Samuel Adams









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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    ...They do have a good instructor, though.
    Undoubtedly!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Moron
    They are morons, aren't they.

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