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Thread: Woman accidentally shot during citizen police academy (citizen patrol) training

  1. #1
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Woman accidentally shot during citizen police academy (citizen patrol) training

    https://www.yahoo.com/gma/woman-acci...opstories.html

    Someone has a real problem. Officer was put on leave. Woman declared deceased. There will be a full internal investigation.

    That is all we know at this point.

  2. #2
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Punta Gorda Police: Woman shot, killed at Citizens Academy

    Mary Knowlton, 73, was shot during a roleplay scenario in which the officer was playing a “bad guy” and fired several times at the woman who was supposed to be playing the victim, according to Sue Paquin, a photographer who was covering the event for the Sun and witnessed the incident.

    http://www.news-press.com/story/news...ment/88500140/
    Cop walks.

    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...s/0782.03.html

    Almost every officer in their career has an accidental discharge," he said. "It's the nature of handling guns … We're human and we make mistakes.

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/4202425-1...officer-shoots
    Hmm...
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Already a thread on this, but you can have it. No posts in mine.

    Yeah, cop walks. It was an 'accident'.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...trol)-training

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    The police/city will pay the family dearly.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Already a thread on this, but you can have it. No posts in mine.

    Yeah, cop walks. It was an 'accident'.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...trol)-training
    Sorry. I go through the state sub-forums first.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    As an advocate proponent of Citizens Academies, I am more concerned about the impact there. Law enforcement can ill afford such incidents and particularly in these trust-establishing circumstances.

    I am charter-inaugural alum of two CA that were thorough and exemplary, and particularly in bridging the citizen-cop gap. Chief Roddy Perry was foresightful establishing his to replenish law enforcement's overdrawn emotional-bank account with the people. I stayed on in the Charleston area long enough to see the salutary effect of his and of Sheriff Al Cannon. I do not recall an equivalent program in the City of Charleston.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  7. #7
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    Not a fan of CAs. A few classroom hours covering the The Blue Wall of Silence, how to yell "stop resisting" effectively, and saying "sorry...my bad" when you "accidentally" shoot a citizen who should not have been shot. If those are added to the LP I would consider attending a CA.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    CA are the first step establishing credibility for an independent citizens' review board.

    The guys that established and ran my CA's are command staff now, the Chief and Assistant Chief. I still stop and visit the AC when I'm in the area. He's ex-Navy, the lowliest snipe rating, and has come a long way.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  9. #9
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    now there are three commentaries on the subject...
    1. The Social Lounge Have an accidental discharge and they want to convict you of something?
    2. The Social Lounge Woman accidentally shot during citizen police academy (citizen patrol) training
    3. The States Florida Punta Gorda Police: Woman shot, killed at Citizens Academy

    slow day eh?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

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    "Man, I used HPs when I meant to use FMJs to lower the danger." Killer Dan

    Why is he not in jail?

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    What in the hell was a functioning firearm used in force on force training.? Everybody should be fired that was involved, and the supervisors that allowed this fiasco.

    Training guns is not a new concept, it has been around for decades, complete idiots.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Should ban cops from having guns. They're too dangerous....


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    UPDATE!! Shot in Chambers Police Night similar to Citizens Academy

    Mary Knowlton, 73, died after being shot by a police officer during a shoot/don't shoot scenario at a special Chamber Police Night similar to the department's citizen police academy, the chief said.
    [ ... ]
    Somber Punta Gorda police Chief Tom Lewis said his department was unaware live ammunition existed for a revolver used during a public demonstration Tuesday night that resulted in the death of a Punta Gorda woman.
    [ ... ]
    Lewis said he could not talk about the gun used due to the FDLE investigation, but explained that only some officers have access to that weapon and it has been used before at similar events. He said his department believed the gun only had blanks available and was not sure how the gun being loaded was missed.

    http://www.news-press.com/story/news...ment/88500140/
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-10-2016 at 05:39 PM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    In addition, the suspect had been involved in this scenario training before, hired in 2014.

    He allegedly pointed the Revolver at the person playing the victim (!) and fired several times.

    They supposedly DID load the revolver but thought they were using blanks. Why? Don't they know blanks could propel a squib or something stuck in the barrel with lethal force at close range? (Brandon Lee shooting was similar, according to some reports).

    Supposed to have had two people checking. But if they were using blue guns, inoperable guns, there would be no need for checking. Can't they afford cap guns?

    This was a bad situation waiting to happen, IMO.

  15. #15
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Blue guns only cost 58 dollars, this was a colossal screw up. The chief needs to lose his job pronto.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  16. #16
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Blue guns only cost 58 dollars, this was a colossal screw up. The chief needs to lose his job pronto.
    no, his as well as all involved in staging this fiasco...fired w/cause without their pensions.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  17. #17
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    I'd be in jail. The Hero will skate because he's an enforcer for the state.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  18. #18
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    Lewis said he could not talk about the gun used due to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement investigation, but explained that only some officers have access to that weapon and it has been used before at similar events. He said his department believed the gun only had blanks available and was not sure how the gun had real bullets nor how it being loaded was missed.
    What is there to investigate and why should it take weeks? Only some officers had access to that pistol. Who had access to the pistol, which officer(s) accessed the pistol, which which officer replaced the blank ammo with live ammo?

    FDLE investigator (to the 34 civilian witnesses): What did you see?
    34 witnesses: I saw officer Coel shoot Mary Knowlton with a pistol. I saw Mary Knowlton fall. I thought it was part of the training scenario. About 2-3 minutes later we were told to get back. I learned that Mary Knowlton was pronounced dead at the hospital.

    The FDLE investigation should take just a few minutes per officer who was present given that only a few officers were present at the training session. A week, tops, and then publish the findings of the investigation.

    Is there video/audio of the incident?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    What is there to investigate and why should it take weeks? Only some officers had access to that pistol. Who had access to the pistol, which officer(s) accessed the pistol, which which officer replaced the blank ammo with live ammo?

    FDLE investigator (to the 34 civilian witnesses): What did you see?
    34 witnesses: I saw officer Coel shoot Mary Knowlton with a pistol. I saw Mary Knowlton fall. I thought it was part of the training scenario. About 2-3 minutes later we were told to get back. I learned that Mary Knowlton was pronounced dead at the hospital.

    The FDLE investigation should take just a few minutes per officer who was present given that only a few officers were present at the training session. A week, tops, and then publish the findings of the investigation.

    Is there video/audio of the incident?
    did Ms knowlton get hit with an actual bullet or blank ammo residue? do not believe they have released that tidbit

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  20. #20
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    sidebar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKjYlpex4OM

    quote: A judge in Orlando, Florida dismissed a lawsuit by the DEA agent Lee Paige who claimed his agency leaked a video that showed him accidentally shooting himself in the foot while demonstrating gun safety in Florida.

    I'm the only one in this room professional enough, that I know of, to carry a Glock .40... BOOM! (added 50 secs into the video)


    Apparently he is also not professional enough to prepare a winning lawsuit, which he filed himself, as the judge stated that Paige had not provided any evidence as to who released the video. (The person who shot the video had turned it over to the DEA.)


    Agent Paige claimed in his lawsuit that DEA officials made him a "target of jokes, derision, ridicule, and disparaging comments," ruining his career as an undercover agent and motivational speaker, by releasing a video of the 2004 incident. Really, people actually teased him? Laughed about this incident? Gee, who would have thought...


    It was pretty amazing that he was able to keep his composure though - that was well done. unquote

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  21. #21
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    did Ms knowlton get hit with an actual bullet or blank ammo residue? do not believe they have released that tidbit

    ipse
    All I know is what has been reported.

    He [Punta Gorda police Chief Tom Lewis] said his department believed the gun only had blanks available and was not sure how the gun had real bullets nor how it being loaded was missed.
    The cynical side of me fears that the FDLE will take "weeks" to be sure that local LE has their ducks in a row so as to mitigate the collateral damage from one or two boneheads.

    The optimist in me seeks a thorough and comprehensive house cleaning because the shooter is the last, but not the only, person to have killed that poor library...yeah right, what was I thinking.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    <snip>

    The optimist in me seeks a thorough and comprehensive house cleaning because the shooter is the last, but not the only, person to have killed that poor library...yeah right, what was I thinking.
    Optimist v. realist ... the battle continues.

  23. #23
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    newser just reported, quote: The Florida police officer who accidentally fired real bullets during a role-playing drill, killing a 73-year-old woman, doesn't exactly have a spotless record. During his rookie year with the Miramar Police Department in 2013, Lee Coel, 28, was accused of excessive force on two occasions before investigators determined he had violated department policy; he says he was cleared of the excessive force claims but still forced to resign. Then earlier this year, Coel was sued after setting a police dog on a man riding a bicycle at night without a light; the man had ignored Coel's commands. unquote

    OC for me, the smoke is clearing...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Because of the prevalence of cop semi autos, that guy must have just pulled the round from the under hammer chamber of that revolver and knew it was safe. Being it was a revolver and all.

    Nemo

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    One of those cops used to the new semiautos and thats all. Probably pulled a round from under the hammer in the revolver and figured it was safe.

    Nemo

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