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Thread: Can a police officer disarm you just for OC

  1. #1
    Regular Member James StuuStu Halford's Avatar
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    Can a police officer disarm you just for OC

    I was recently stopped while open carrying in Hales Corners. As I was walking down the sidewalk I seen a cop waiting for me so I just proceeded on my way because I wasn't doing anything wrong. When I came up to the officer he Grabbed my arm and made me put my hands up while he started to disarm me. I responded that I do not consent to any search or seizures and asked if I was being detained (which he said no I wasn't). he then continued to pat me down after taking my fire-arm.

    If I'm not being detained then I should be free to go but how can I do that if they have my fire-arm.

    Is this legal for them to do?

  2. #2
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Contact an attorney. I would say you were detained if your property was seized, you were physically restrained, and searched.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    I was recently stopped while open carrying in Hales Corners. As I was walking down the sidewalk I seen a cop waiting for me so I just proceeded on my way because I wasn't doing anything wrong. When I came up to the officer he Grabbed my arm and made me put my hands up while he started to disarm me. I responded that I do not consent to any search or seizures and asked if I was being detained (which he said no I wasn't). he then continued to pat me down after taking my fire-arm.

    If I'm not being detained then I should be free to go but how can I do that if they have my fire-arm.

    Is this legal for them to do?
    contact internal affairs and file a formal complaint then what WW stated and i would cease posting any further information about your situation out on this public forum.



    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 08-11-2016 at 01:00 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    If they are holding your property, its a detainment and seizure.

    You need to file a no contact order with them at least to avoid a repeat.
    And a no trespass order too.

    You may sue if you wish. Pro se or with help from a lawyer. I would suggest asking for records prior to doing so to see if he had PC or RAS to do what he did.

    And you need to work on your awareness skills.

    IANAL

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    Were you cited, were you charged, did you get a receipt for your weapon, is there any documentation at all? Or did you give the cop a freebie?

    You may beat the rap but you have already gotten the ride.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    I was recently stopped while open carrying in Hales Corners. As I was walking down the sidewalk I seen a cop waiting for me so I just proceeded on my way because I wasn't doing anything wrong. When I came up to the officer he Grabbed my arm and made me put my hands up while he started to disarm me. I responded that I do not consent to any search or seizures and asked if I was being detained (which he said no I wasn't). he then continued to pat me down after taking my fire-arm.

    If I'm not being detained then I should be free to go but how can I do that if they have my fire-arm.

    Is this legal for them to do?
    Unfortunately the cop did, rightly or wrongly. WW/solus is correct, get a lawyer and follow his advice to the letter and then comeback after your lawyer says it is OK to tell us (post) what happened, what remedy you sought, and the remedy (if any) eventually received. Good luck.

    ...oh, and read up on your state's statutes that could possibly/remotely justify the cop's acts.

    Side note: If you were not detained why did he grab you? Again, let your lawyer find the answer to that and many other questions.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    James S.Halford is not listed in WCCA. He does have a GoFundMe.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-11-2016 at 02:15 PM.
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  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    James S.Halford is not listed in WCCA. He does have a GoFundMe.
    Looking for funds to repair a modified rice burner - appears to be a fruitless effort.

    Still, the GoFundMe request has nothing to do with RKBA or OC.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-11-2016 at 03:35 PM.
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    Regular Member James StuuStu Halford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Looking for funds to repair a modified rice burner - appears to be a fruitless effort.

    Still, the GoFundMe request has nothing to do with RKBA or OC.
    I appreciate the the rude remark. I was just asking for some simple information. I just want to know what to do the next time it occurs.

    Also I can understand you might not like foreign cars but it's actually very slightly modified and that's to help me get through more mud and snow when I practice rallying. The body work is all factory.

    Thank you though

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    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    <snip> I just want to know what to do the next time it occurs.
    You have many options. What is your desired outcome?

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    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    I appreciate the the rude remark.
    Only a SNOWFLAKE would consider disagreement as discourteous or impolite.

    Note the insincere valediction.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-11-2016 at 04:46 PM.
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  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Looking for funds to repair a modified rice burner - appears to be a fruitless effort.

    Still, the GoFundMe request has nothing to do with RKBA or OC.
    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    I appreciate the the rude remark. I was just asking for some simple information. I just want to know what to do the next time it occurs.

    Also I can understand you might not like foreign cars but it's actually very slightly modified and that's to help me get through more mud and snow when I practice rallying. The body work is all factory.

    Thank you though
    The was no rudeness or personal attack intended nor given.

    I followed the trail to GoFundMe and saw the vehicle was of oriental manufacture - that is to what rice burner refers in internet slang. It should be obvious why I said appears to be a fruitless effort - that is an observation, not an insult.

    Insofar as what to do next time - answered = contact an attorney immediately.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    reading the OPs comments, they appear to be wanting to maintain status quo so the nice LEs can continue their nafarious activities....unless, just unless there is more to this story than is known...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    They're going to have to come from OPie. I searched Hales Corner PD, Wisconsin Circuit Court rap sheets, some local coverage papers and the interwebz fruitlessly.

    The arm grab was a battery that I can't believe is not reported or documented anywhere.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-11-2016 at 05:41 PM.
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    Regular Member James StuuStu Halford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    They're going to have to come from OPie. I searched Hales Corner PD, Wisconsin Circuit Court rap sheets, some local coverage papers and the interwebz fruitlessly.

    The arm grab was a battery that I can't believe is not reported or documented anywhere.
    Really?? I have it all on video too. They gave me a bunch of guff for not having my CCW on me and I told them that is why I was open carrying.

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    Well then, pictures or it didn't happen. Really!
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-11-2016 at 06:28 PM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    They're going to have to come from OPie. I searched Hales Corner PD, Wisconsin Circuit Court rap sheets, some local coverage papers and the interwebz fruitlessly.

    The arm grab was a battery that I can't believe is not reported or documented anywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    Really?? I have it all on video too. They gave me a bunch of guff for not having my CCW on me and I told them that is why I was open carrying.
    It seems you are not going to take the advice of "say no more w/o an attorney's permission" so I'll ask a few.

    When did "a cop" become "They"?

    A purported video which we have not seen is hardly "documentation." Will you show it?

    Did you do a FOIA request on this alleged incident?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  18. #18
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    tis better to play the martyr...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    I was recently stopped while open carrying in Hales Corners. As I was walking down the sidewalk I seen a cop waiting for me so I just proceeded on my way because I wasn't doing anything wrong. When I came up to the officer he Grabbed my arm and made me put my hands up while he started to disarm me. I responded that I do not consent to any search or seizures and asked if I was being detained (which he said no I wasn't). he then continued to pat me down after taking my fire-arm.

    If I'm not being detained then I should be free to go but how can I do that if they have my fire-arm.

    Is this legal for them to do?
    This reply is based on the assumption you are telling the facts, not omitting important facts, and not distorting any facts. I'm literally going on what you've written.

    I am not a lawyer (you should contact one, as others have already mentioned.)

    The instant he grabbed your arm, you were seized for the purposes of the 4th Amendment (right against unreasonable searches and seizures). See Terry v Ohio.1

    You experienced something called a Terry Patdown. Also known as a stop-and-frisk. Even if he had not patted you down, we're still in the territory of a Terry Stop, also known as a detention, detainment.

    Terry vs Ohio makes clear the minimum legal standards of suspicion for a police officer to temporarily detain someone while investigating them further. Later court cases refined that standard.

    When the cop said you were not detained he might have been lying to confuse you or (see alternative in next paragraph). Police are allowed to lie to suspects. Google something called "permissible deception." I'm not saying lying to someone about whether they are detained is permissible. I would think not, if for no other reason than a person lied to that he's not being detained. who then started to walk away, could be suddenly thrown to the ground and handcuffed, perhaps even charged with resisting or obstructing. I'm thinking he might have been lying to keep you confused.

    Alternatively, he handed you a gold-crusted gem. He said you were not detained; yet, you clearly were. Take him at his word. He said it. He works in this industry. You are entirely justified in assuming he is supposed to know what he is talking about. And, yet...he didn't. Massive incompetence!! How many other people has he seized when he thought he wasn't seizing them? How many other people has he detained while thinking it wasn't a detention? How many other unjustified and illegal detentions will he perpetrate in his incompetence? Man, if you got that recorded, you can slam him and make him look like an incompetent idiot. And, that is just in a formal written complaint to internal affairs and social media. Lets say you go the lawsuit route where you elect to sue a knowing violation of your rights. What's he gonna say? Admit to massive incompetence? One, that would be a huge loss of face. Two, the argument can't succeed because the law on detentions should be totally known and understood by any reasonable cop (hunt up the law on rights violations and qualified immunity and the standards of whether the law is clear--it is in this case--and whether a reasonable cop would have known that law.) Oh, man, did he ever hand you a gem.


    1. Terry vs Ohio: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/392/1
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-11-2016 at 07:58 PM.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    This reply is based on the assumption you are telling the facts, not omitting important facts, and not distorting any facts. I'm literally going on what you've written.

    I am not a lawyer (you should contact one, as others have already mentioned.)

    The instant he grabbed your arm, you were seized for the purposes of the 4th Amendment (right against unreasonable searches and seizures). See Terry v Ohio.1

    You experienced something called a Terry Patdown. Also known as a stop-and-frisk. Even if he had not patted you down, we're still in the territory of a Terry Stop, also known as a detention, detainment.

    Terry vs Ohio makes clear the minimum legal standards of suspicion for a police officer to temporarily detain someone while investigating them further. Later court cases refined that standard.

    When the cop said you were not detained he might have been lying to confuse you or (see alternative in next paragraph). Police are allowed to lie to suspects. Google something called "permissible deception." I'm not saying lying to someone about whether they are detained is permissible. I would think not, if for no other reason than a person lied to that he's not being detained. who then started to walk away, could be suddenly thrown to the ground and handcuffed, perhaps even charged with resisting or obstructing. I'm thinking he might have been lying to keep you confused.

    Alternatively, he handed you a gold-crusted gem. He said you were not detained; yet, you clearly were. Take him at his word. He said it. He works in this industry. You are entirely justified in assuming he is supposed to know what he is talking about. And, yet...he didn't. Massive incompetence!! How many other people has he seized when he thought he wasn't seizing them? How many other people has he detained while thinking it wasn't a detention? How many other unjustified and illegal detentions will he perpetrate in his incompetence? Man, if you got that recorded, you can slam him and make him look like an incompetent idiot. And, that is just in a formal written complaint to internal affairs and social media. Lets say you go the lawsuit route where you elect to sue a knowing violation of your rights. What's he gonna say? Admit to massive incompetence? One, that would be a huge loss of face. Two, the argument can't succeed because the law on detentions should be totally known and understood by any reasonable cop (hunt up the law on rights violations and qualified immunity and the standards of whether the law is clear--it is in this case--and whether a reasonable cop would have known that law.) Oh, man, did he ever hand you a gem.


    1. Terry vs Ohio: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/392/1
    Heien has stirred up the sediment where Terry is concerned. The Heien defense was used very shortly after that SCOTUS ruling by, I think but could be wrong, another NC LEA. The OP needs to retain a lawyer.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Heien has stirred up the sediment where Terry is concerned. The Heien defense was used very shortly after that SCOTUS ruling by, I think but could be wrong, another NC LEA. The OP needs to retain a lawyer.
    Retain a lawyer? The OP indicated that he does not want to sue at this point. Still looking to see what the OP desires, a little bit early to say "go see a lawyer". The guy has no criminal case (as far as I know) and does not want to pursue a lawsuit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    The guy has no criminal case (as far as I know)
    Wisc. Stats. 940.19 Battery. Stats. 900+ are the criminal code.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    I was recently stopped while open carrying in Hales Corners. As I was walking down the sidewalk I seen a cop waiting for me so I just proceeded on my way because I wasn't doing anything wrong. When I came up to the officer he Grabbed my arm and made me put my hands up while he started to disarm me. I responded that I do not consent to any search or seizures and asked if I was being detained (which he said no I wasn't). he then continued to pat me down after taking my fire-arm.

    If I'm not being detained then I should be free to go but how can I do that if they have my fire-arm.

    Is this legal for them to do?
    My suggestion:

    1. File a FOIA or "Open Records" request for all information related to the incident.
    2. File an official complaint against the officer(s) involved.
    3. Contact Nik Clark of WCI (Wisconsin Carry, Inc.)

    To try and answer you question: No, without probably cause, the mere presence of the firearm should not be sufficient for a stop and frisk.
    In the future, this is what I would do and what I would have done:

    So I was attacked by LEO for no reason. LEO eventually lets me go, and with my gun.
    1. Call 911 immediately after the encounter. Report the truth, you were just assaulted by a police officer. That way they WILL have records.
    2. Get the officers name/badge number.
    3. File an official complaint against the officer for assault.
    4. Contact the DA's office. I was assaulted by LEO. I am the victim of a crime. I wish to make a statement and file a criminal complaint. (This should get an investigation going).

    Just my thoughts. I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bnhcomputing View Post
    My suggestion:

    1. File a FOIA or "Open Records" request for all information related to the incident.
    2. File an official complaint against the officer(s) involved.
    3. Contact Nik Clark of WCI (Wisconsin Carry, Inc.)

    To try and answer you question: No, without probably cause, the mere presence of the firearm should not be sufficient for a stop and frisk.
    In the future, this is what I would do and what I would have done:

    So I was attacked by LEO for no reason. LEO eventually lets me go, and with my gun.
    1. Call 911 immediately after the encounter. Report the truth, you were just assaulted by a police officer. That way they WILL have records.
    2. Get the officers name/badge number.
    3. File an official complaint against the officer for assault.
    4. Contact the DA's office. I was assaulted by LEO. I am the victim of a crime. I wish to make a statement and file a criminal complaint. (This should get an investigation going).


























    Just my thoughts. I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.

    +10000000000000

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    Oowwooh! That one knocked the dust out of the overhead.
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