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Thread: Can a police officer disarm you just for OC

  1. #1
    Regular Member James StuuStu Halford's Avatar
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    Can a police officer disarm you just for OC

    I was recently stopped while open carrying in Hales Corners. As I was walking down the sidewalk I seen a cop waiting for me so I just proceeded on my way because I wasn't doing anything wrong. When I came up to the officer he Grabbed my arm and made me put my hands up while he started to disarm me. I responded that I do not consent to any search or seizures and asked if I was being detained (which he said no I wasn't). he then continued to pat me down after taking my fire-arm.

    If I'm not being detained then I should be free to go but how can I do that if they have my fire-arm.

    Is this legal for them to do?

  2. #2
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Contact an attorney. I would say you were detained if your property was seized, you were physically restrained, and searched.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    I was recently stopped while open carrying in Hales Corners. As I was walking down the sidewalk I seen a cop waiting for me so I just proceeded on my way because I wasn't doing anything wrong. When I came up to the officer he Grabbed my arm and made me put my hands up while he started to disarm me. I responded that I do not consent to any search or seizures and asked if I was being detained (which he said no I wasn't). he then continued to pat me down after taking my fire-arm.

    If I'm not being detained then I should be free to go but how can I do that if they have my fire-arm.

    Is this legal for them to do?
    contact internal affairs and file a formal complaint then what WW stated and i would cease posting any further information about your situation out on this public forum.



    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 08-11-2016 at 12:00 PM.
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

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    If they are holding your property, its a detainment and seizure.

    You need to file a no contact order with them at least to avoid a repeat.
    And a no trespass order too.

    You may sue if you wish. Pro se or with help from a lawyer. I would suggest asking for records prior to doing so to see if he had PC or RAS to do what he did.

    And you need to work on your awareness skills.

    IANAL

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    I was recently stopped while open carrying in Hales Corners. As I was walking down the sidewalk I seen a cop waiting for me so I just proceeded on my way because I wasn't doing anything wrong. When I came up to the officer he Grabbed my arm and made me put my hands up while he started to disarm me. I responded that I do not consent to any search or seizures and asked if I was being detained (which he said no I wasn't). he then continued to pat me down after taking my fire-arm.

    If I'm not being detained then I should be free to go but how can I do that if they have my fire-arm.

    Is this legal for them to do?
    Unfortunately the cop did, rightly or wrongly. WW/solus is correct, get a lawyer and follow his advice to the letter and then comeback after your lawyer says it is OK to tell us (post) what happened, what remedy you sought, and the remedy (if any) eventually received. Good luck.

    ...oh, and read up on your state's statutes that could possibly/remotely justify the cop's acts.

    Side note: If you were not detained why did he grab you? Again, let your lawyer find the answer to that and many other questions.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    James S.Halford is not listed in WCCA. He does have a GoFundMe.
    Looking for funds to repair a modified rice burner - appears to be a fruitless effort.

    Still, the GoFundMe request has nothing to do with RKBA or OC.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-11-2016 at 02:35 PM.
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Regular Member James StuuStu Halford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Looking for funds to repair a modified rice burner - appears to be a fruitless effort.

    Still, the GoFundMe request has nothing to do with RKBA or OC.
    I appreciate the the rude remark. I was just asking for some simple information. I just want to know what to do the next time it occurs.

    Also I can understand you might not like foreign cars but it's actually very slightly modified and that's to help me get through more mud and snow when I practice rallying. The body work is all factory.

    Thank you though

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    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    <snip> I just want to know what to do the next time it occurs.
    You have many options. What is your desired outcome?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Looking for funds to repair a modified rice burner - appears to be a fruitless effort.

    Still, the GoFundMe request has nothing to do with RKBA or OC.
    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    I appreciate the the rude remark. I was just asking for some simple information. I just want to know what to do the next time it occurs.

    Also I can understand you might not like foreign cars but it's actually very slightly modified and that's to help me get through more mud and snow when I practice rallying. The body work is all factory.

    Thank you though
    The was no rudeness or personal attack intended nor given.

    I followed the trail to GoFundMe and saw the vehicle was of oriental manufacture - that is to what rice burner refers in internet slang. It should be obvious why I said appears to be a fruitless effort - that is an observation, not an insult.

    Insofar as what to do next time - answered = contact an attorney immediately.
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    reading the OPs comments, they appear to be wanting to maintain status quo so the nice LEs can continue their nafarious activities....unless, just unless there is more to this story than is known...

    ipse
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    Regular Member James StuuStu Halford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    They're going to have to come from OPie. I searched Hales Corner PD, Wisconsin Circuit Court rap sheets, some local coverage papers and the interwebz fruitlessly.

    The arm grab was a battery that I can't believe is not reported or documented anywhere.
    Really?? I have it all on video too. They gave me a bunch of guff for not having my CCW on me and I told them that is why I was open carrying.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    They're going to have to come from OPie. I searched Hales Corner PD, Wisconsin Circuit Court rap sheets, some local coverage papers and the interwebz fruitlessly.

    The arm grab was a battery that I can't believe is not reported or documented anywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    Really?? I have it all on video too. They gave me a bunch of guff for not having my CCW on me and I told them that is why I was open carrying.
    It seems you are not going to take the advice of "say no more w/o an attorney's permission" so I'll ask a few.

    When did "a cop" become "They"?

    A purported video which we have not seen is hardly "documentation." Will you show it?

    Did you do a FOIA request on this alleged incident?
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    tis better to play the martyr...

    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    I was recently stopped while open carrying in Hales Corners. As I was walking down the sidewalk I seen a cop waiting for me so I just proceeded on my way because I wasn't doing anything wrong. When I came up to the officer he Grabbed my arm and made me put my hands up while he started to disarm me. I responded that I do not consent to any search or seizures and asked if I was being detained (which he said no I wasn't). he then continued to pat me down after taking my fire-arm.

    If I'm not being detained then I should be free to go but how can I do that if they have my fire-arm.

    Is this legal for them to do?
    This reply is based on the assumption you are telling the facts, not omitting important facts, and not distorting any facts. I'm literally going on what you've written.

    I am not a lawyer (you should contact one, as others have already mentioned.)

    The instant he grabbed your arm, you were seized for the purposes of the 4th Amendment (right against unreasonable searches and seizures). See Terry v Ohio.1

    You experienced something called a Terry Patdown. Also known as a stop-and-frisk. Even if he had not patted you down, we're still in the territory of a Terry Stop, also known as a detention, detainment.

    Terry vs Ohio makes clear the minimum legal standards of suspicion for a police officer to temporarily detain someone while investigating them further. Later court cases refined that standard.

    When the cop said you were not detained he might have been lying to confuse you or (see alternative in next paragraph). Police are allowed to lie to suspects. Google something called "permissible deception." I'm not saying lying to someone about whether they are detained is permissible. I would think not, if for no other reason than a person lied to that he's not being detained. who then started to walk away, could be suddenly thrown to the ground and handcuffed, perhaps even charged with resisting or obstructing. I'm thinking he might have been lying to keep you confused.

    Alternatively, he handed you a gold-crusted gem. He said you were not detained; yet, you clearly were. Take him at his word. He said it. He works in this industry. You are entirely justified in assuming he is supposed to know what he is talking about. And, yet...he didn't. Massive incompetence!! How many other people has he seized when he thought he wasn't seizing them? How many other people has he detained while thinking it wasn't a detention? How many other unjustified and illegal detentions will he perpetrate in his incompetence? Man, if you got that recorded, you can slam him and make him look like an incompetent idiot. And, that is just in a formal written complaint to internal affairs and social media. Lets say you go the lawsuit route where you elect to sue a knowing violation of your rights. What's he gonna say? Admit to massive incompetence? One, that would be a huge loss of face. Two, the argument can't succeed because the law on detentions should be totally known and understood by any reasonable cop (hunt up the law on rights violations and qualified immunity and the standards of whether the law is clear--it is in this case--and whether a reasonable cop would have known that law.) Oh, man, did he ever hand you a gem.


    1. Terry vs Ohio: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/392/1
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-11-2016 at 06:58 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    This reply is based on the assumption you are telling the facts, not omitting important facts, and not distorting any facts. I'm literally going on what you've written.

    I am not a lawyer (you should contact one, as others have already mentioned.)

    The instant he grabbed your arm, you were seized for the purposes of the 4th Amendment (right against unreasonable searches and seizures). See Terry v Ohio.1

    You experienced something called a Terry Patdown. Also known as a stop-and-frisk. Even if he had not patted you down, we're still in the territory of a Terry Stop, also known as a detention, detainment.

    Terry vs Ohio makes clear the minimum legal standards of suspicion for a police officer to temporarily detain someone while investigating them further. Later court cases refined that standard.

    When the cop said you were not detained he might have been lying to confuse you or (see alternative in next paragraph). Police are allowed to lie to suspects. Google something called "permissible deception." I'm not saying lying to someone about whether they are detained is permissible. I would think not, if for no other reason than a person lied to that he's not being detained. who then started to walk away, could be suddenly thrown to the ground and handcuffed, perhaps even charged with resisting or obstructing. I'm thinking he might have been lying to keep you confused.

    Alternatively, he handed you a gold-crusted gem. He said you were not detained; yet, you clearly were. Take him at his word. He said it. He works in this industry. You are entirely justified in assuming he is supposed to know what he is talking about. And, yet...he didn't. Massive incompetence!! How many other people has he seized when he thought he wasn't seizing them? How many other people has he detained while thinking it wasn't a detention? How many other unjustified and illegal detentions will he perpetrate in his incompetence? Man, if you got that recorded, you can slam him and make him look like an incompetent idiot. And, that is just in a formal written complaint to internal affairs and social media. Lets say you go the lawsuit route where you elect to sue a knowing violation of your rights. What's he gonna say? Admit to massive incompetence? One, that would be a huge loss of face. Two, the argument can't succeed because the law on detentions should be totally known and understood by any reasonable cop (hunt up the law on rights violations and qualified immunity and the standards of whether the law is clear--it is in this case--and whether a reasonable cop would have known that law.) Oh, man, did he ever hand you a gem.


    1. Terry vs Ohio: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/392/1
    Heien has stirred up the sediment where Terry is concerned. The Heien defense was used very shortly after that SCOTUS ruling by, I think but could be wrong, another NC LEA. The OP needs to retain a lawyer.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Heien has stirred up the sediment where Terry is concerned. The Heien defense was used very shortly after that SCOTUS ruling by, I think but could be wrong, another NC LEA. The OP needs to retain a lawyer.
    Retain a lawyer? The OP indicated that he does not want to sue at this point. Still looking to see what the OP desires, a little bit early to say "go see a lawyer". The guy has no criminal case (as far as I know) and does not want to pursue a lawsuit.

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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James StuuStu Halford View Post
    I was recently stopped while open carrying in Hales Corners. As I was walking down the sidewalk I seen a cop waiting for me so I just proceeded on my way because I wasn't doing anything wrong. When I came up to the officer he Grabbed my arm and made me put my hands up while he started to disarm me. I responded that I do not consent to any search or seizures and asked if I was being detained (which he said no I wasn't). he then continued to pat me down after taking my fire-arm.

    If I'm not being detained then I should be free to go but how can I do that if they have my fire-arm.

    Is this legal for them to do?
    My suggestion:

    1. File a FOIA or "Open Records" request for all information related to the incident.
    2. File an official complaint against the officer(s) involved.
    3. Contact Nik Clark of WCI (Wisconsin Carry, Inc.)

    To try and answer you question: No, without probably cause, the mere presence of the firearm should not be sufficient for a stop and frisk.
    In the future, this is what I would do and what I would have done:

    So I was attacked by LEO for no reason. LEO eventually lets me go, and with my gun.
    1. Call 911 immediately after the encounter. Report the truth, you were just assaulted by a police officer. That way they WILL have records.
    2. Get the officers name/badge number.
    3. File an official complaint against the officer for assault.
    4. Contact the DA's office. I was assaulted by LEO. I am the victim of a crime. I wish to make a statement and file a criminal complaint. (This should get an investigation going).

    Just my thoughts. I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bnhcomputing View Post
    My suggestion:

    1. File a FOIA or "Open Records" request for all information related to the incident.
    2. File an official complaint against the officer(s) involved.
    3. Contact Nik Clark of WCI (Wisconsin Carry, Inc.)

    To try and answer you question: No, without probably cause, the mere presence of the firearm should not be sufficient for a stop and frisk.
    In the future, this is what I would do and what I would have done:

    So I was attacked by LEO for no reason. LEO eventually lets me go, and with my gun.
    1. Call 911 immediately after the encounter. Report the truth, you were just assaulted by a police officer. That way they WILL have records.
    2. Get the officers name/badge number.
    3. File an official complaint against the officer for assault.
    4. Contact the DA's office. I was assaulted by LEO. I am the victim of a crime. I wish to make a statement and file a criminal complaint. (This should get an investigation going).


























    Just my thoughts. I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.

    +10000000000000

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    Quote Originally Posted by bnhcomputing View Post
    My suggestion:

    1. File a FOIA or "Open Records" request for all information related to the incident.
    2. File an official complaint against the officer(s) involved.
    3. Contact Nik Clark of WCI (Wisconsin Carry, Inc.)

    To try and answer you question: No, without probably cause, the mere presence of the firearm should not be sufficient for a stop and frisk.
    In the future, this is what I would do and what I would have done:

    So I was attacked by LEO for no reason. LEO eventually lets me go, and with my gun.
    1. Call 911 immediately after the encounter. Report the truth, you were just assaulted by a police officer. That way they WILL have records.
    2. Get the officers name/badge number.
    3. File an official complaint against the officer for assault.
    4. Contact the DA's office. I was assaulted by LEO. I am the victim of a crime. I wish to make a statement and file a criminal complaint. (This should get an investigation going).

    Just my thoughts. I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.
    +100

    I like this--at least, off the cuff. Maybe further review of tactics argues against it. But, for an instant reaction, I love it. Why?

    Because it speaks to a fundamental, foundational element of governmental theory in this country.

    Full disclosure: I no longer accept the views I am about to give. But, that does not change the fact that the views I am about to give are part of the primary "explanation" for the legitimacy of government as pounded into us since junior high. Which is just another way of saying, "Hey! This is the government's own argument. If they violate it, tough for them."

    In this here democratic republic, government only has the authority it is given by the people. A cop only has the authority he is given by the people. The instant he steps one millimeter past that line, he is no longer operating as a cop. The instant he steps even one millimeter past that line, he is nothing more than an ordinary person--because it was authority (given by the people) that elevated him above them. Without that authority, beyond that authority, he is just an ordinary citizen.

    An ordinary citizen grabbing another is at a minimum assault. So, I love it. No legal authority? Instantly revert to citizen status.

    The US Supreme Court has twice said no right is more sacred or carefully guarded than the right of all individuals to the control and possession of their own person unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. They said it first in Union Pacific Rail Co vs Botsford. And, they said it again by quoting Botsford in Terry v Ohio. No right. More sacred. Without clear and unquestionable authority of law.

    Not just clear. Clear and unquestionable. Notice the horsepower in that word unquestionable. Any lawyer can argue his version of what the law clearly says. But, that word unquestionable destroys the attempt. The instant anybody offers an alternate interpretation of a law, they've raised a question. They've questioned what the law means. If the defendant was seized (arrested or detained) on an interpretation of law that was open to question, the arrest violated his rights. So says Botsford. So says Terry by quoting Botsford. He can be seized only on an interpretation of the law that is so iron-clad that it cannot be questioned (excepting hucksters and total idiots).

    And, the instant a cop invents a not-ironclad interpretation of the law (also known as anything between self-perceived "loop-holes", distortions, and deliberate rights violations)...the instant the cop invents or uses any questionable interpretation of the law, he has exceeded his authority. So says Botsford. So says Terry by quoting Botsford.

    The instant he exceed the authority, he exceeded his delegated powers. And, outside of his delegated powers, he is just an ordinary citizen.

    And, committed assault.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-12-2016 at 07:51 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    The guy has no criminal case (as far as I know)
    If the OP is being truthful and left nothing out, I too see no criminal cases. An officer grabbing an arm in an escort hold (which is what it sounds happened) is not battery, even if the officer had no RS to detain him. Instead of debating that it is, I insist on a cite where an officer using an escort hold was charged with battery. (Wisconsin doesn't have "assault").

    What he might have is a case for illegal detention and illegal seizure. Both are serious charges.

    I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    If the OP is being truthful and left nothing out, I too see no criminal cases. An officer grabbing an arm in an escort hold (which is what it sounds happened) is not battery, even if the officer had no RS to detain him. Instead of debating that it is, I insist on a cite where an officer using an escort hold was charged with battery. (Wisconsin doesn't have "assault").

    What he might have is a case for illegal detention and illegal seizure. Both are serious charges.

    I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.
    i would like a cite where a nice LE out of the blue can exercise an 'escort hold' on JQPublic w/o RAS/PC!!

    now, the only escort hold i would agree to is if i had already proffered my currency to the nice young lady.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 08-13-2016 at 06:39 AM. Reason: cut and paste of someone strong arming some didn't work
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    i would like a cite where a nice LE out of the blue can exercise an 'escort hold' on JQPublic w/o RAS/PC!!

    This is where the illegal detention/seizure comes in. But I know of no case where it was considered a battery.

    The OP is new with few posts. Is it possible there are elements to the story we have not heard?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    This is where the illegal detention/seizure comes in. But I know of no case where it was considered a battery.

    The OP is new with few posts. Is it possible there are elements to the story we have not heard?
    If the detention is illegal then contact IS battery. There is a misconception that LEO's have god like powers. They have no powers on the law abiding, and must respect the same laws unless there is RAS/PC. The problem is the corruption in the court system that does not hold the officers accountable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    If the OP is being truthful and left nothing out, I too see no criminal cases. An officer grabbing an arm in an escort hold (which is what it sounds happened) is not battery, even if the officer had no RS to detain him. Instead of debating that it is, I insist on a cite where an officer using an escort hold was charged with battery. (Wisconsin doesn't have "assault").

    What he might have is a case for illegal detention and illegal seizure. Both are serious charges.

    I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.
    I meant against him...but I agree on the other side.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    If the detention is illegal then contact IS battery.
    Says who?

    I didn't ask for your opinion. I asked for a cite showing where a police officer was charged with battery for using an escort hold.

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