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Thread: What happened to gun safety?

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    What happened to gun safety?

    Within the last week, I have had several guns aimed in my directing while in stores and at a range. What the heck is up with people who forget this? Even today at Green Top in Richmond, had a guy sighting a rifle at me. He seemed to take offense to me asking him to not aim the gun at me with a "but it's not loaded" sort of reply. At a range the other day, a guy with a rental that jammed, comes out with it, swinging it around LOADED, to complain it was jammed. Thankfully, the guy behind the counter grabbed it ASAP and gave him a little speech on the matter.

    From a young age, I was always taught to treat every gun as loaded, even if I just unloaded it. Maybe I have been through too much gun safety training and am being a bit paranoid, but I can't think of anyone who would not have a problem having a gun aimed at them.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Jeff Cooper's Four Rules:

    1. All guns are always loaded.
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
    4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.


    Once rung, you cannot unring the bell.
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    ^^Maverick's Fifth Rule:

    5. Do not play with your firearm.

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    Some places who allow shooting do not accentuate these "rules" very well.

    Consider shooting elsewhere if a continual issue is noted. Does not appear as if this is the situation here (yet).

    I have been to ranges where almost anything goes ... I generally try to avoid these.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freki View Post
    Even today at Green Top in Richmond, had a guy sighting a rifle at me. He seemed to take offense to me asking him to not aim the gun at me with a "but it's not loaded" sort of reply. At a range the other day, a guy with a rental that jammed, comes out with it, swinging it around LOADED, to complain it was jammed. Thankfully, the guy behind the counter grabbed it ASAP and gave him a little speech on the matter.
    I believe Jeff Cooper's Four Rules should be posted everywhere, and drummed into anyone's head who shows even the slightest tendency to waiver.
    I no longer have any confidence in the moderation or administration of this forum. Nonetheless, the First STILL protects the Second, and the Second protects the First! Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and other founding documents. If you're going to do anything at all, do it right!

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Situational awareness is preached to keep us safe from bad guys. Perhaps SA should be preached to keep us safe from fools.
    It can't do either. Note the OP said the rifle was already pointed at him when he notice and his SA? He stayed there and confronted the person instead of going elsewhere.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    We are known by the company that we keep.
    Very seldom do we get to chose who points a real gun at us. Training scenarios aside.
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Some places who allow shooting do not accentuate these "rules" very well.

    Consider shooting elsewhere if a continual issue is noted. Does not appear as if this is the situation here (yet).

    I have been to ranges where almost anything goes ... I generally try to avoid these.
    So far, the ranges I've visited here have those rules posted AND on the waiver you must sign before entering the range. This was a one off, just an idiot who thought he was above the rules and thought he knew better than anyone else. This is a range that is well regulated, not overly policed, but if you're doing something unsafe, they will call you out on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    It can't do either. Note the OP said the rifle was already pointed at him when he notice and his SA? He stayed there and confronted the person instead of going elsewhere.
    I actually caught it out of the corner of my eye as he was doing so, I jumped out of the line of sight of the barrel and approached him. Others in the same store were aiming UP, this guy decided to aim at the front of the store, and all the people between him and the door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freki View Post
    I actually caught it out of the corner of my eye as he was doing so, I jumped out of the line of sight of the barrel and approached him. Others in the same store were aiming UP, this guy decided to aim at the front of the store, and all the people between him and the door.
    Good way to get shot - pointing a firearm at someone who is armed. Reality = YOU don't know it isn't loaded, you must assume it is.

    I don't care if it is range or store that sells firearms. You point a firearm at someone with good training - that training takes over.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drsysadmin View Post
    Good way to get shot - pointing a firearm at someone who is armed. Reality = YOU don't know it isn't loaded, you must assume it is.

    I don't care if it is range or store that sells firearms. You point a firearm at someone with good training - that training takes over.
    Situational awareness is just part of the reaction curve.

    Stepping aside and correcting the problem would seem imminently better than resorting to violence. Once rung, that bell stays rung and the reverberations will be felt far and wide.
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drsysadmin View Post
    Good way to get shot - pointing a firearm at someone who is armed. Reality = YOU don't know it isn't loaded, you must assume it is.

    I don't care if it is range or store that sells firearms. You point a firearm at someone with good training - that training takes over.

    I am sure that shooting someone in at a gun store, gun show, or range pointing a gun at you would be looked at as unreasonable unless a confirmed threat was noted.

    People with good training should able to determine between the two.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    So, good training is shooting someone that has no intention of harming you or anyone else? I don't think I want any of that training. I think you should turn yourself in to the police and ask that they put you in jail, if you have been trained to the point that you have lost control of your ability to restrain yourself. You need to be reprogrammed by a "sysadmin".
    What's the worse that can happen at a range with some guy waving his muzzle in your direction? You get shot/killed. Chances are not high...I just assume it was a brain-fart if it only happens once.

    I'm just a bullet catcher anyways.

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    The unique situation at gun shows is the reason I do not fault show operators who impose certain restrictions on privately carried firearms. Gun shows are the one place where one handles a gun and is likely to point it at another person (unintentional as that may be), on a fairly regular basis. So some extra precautions are in order.

    With the exception of booths/tables set up around the perimeter of a show, it is typically impossible to pick up a gun off a table without having it point at someone in the show. It was pointing at someone before it was picked up. The person may not have been visible behind a booth backdrop. But odds are good that if the gun were to discharge while sitting on the table, or in the act of being picked up, the bullet would strike a person before it found a safe place to come to rest.

    This is true even if one is very careful about sighting at the ground after picking up. (Never mind the chance of a dangerous ricochet off the concrete floor typical in the venues that host gun shows.) If one chooses to sight at the ceiling, instead, the gun is certain swept up past people on the way to sighting, and then down past people to be laid back on the table.

    People can claim to be perfect about never pointing a gun at anything they don't want to destroy, but at a typical gun show, most anyone who picks a gun up from a table will have pointed it at someone whether they realize it or not.

    (One, rare way to avoid this is if display guns are pointed down while on display and then never raised from pointing at the floor while being handled. This is so rare a way for guns to be displayed at shows as to almost not warrant mentioning.)

    Deliberately pointing a gun at someone is both dangerous and bad manners.

    Not knowing one is pointing a gun at someone else, and that someone not knowing the gun is pointing at them, eliminates the bad manners part. But does nothing to reduce the danger.

    Zip ties through magazine wells, barrels, or chambers, give high comfort that the firearm won't discharge. But accepting that forces one to modify his view of the rules.

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Situational awareness is just part of the reaction curve.
    Stepping aside and correcting the problem would seem imminently better than resorting to violence. Once rung, that bell stays rung and the reverberations will be felt far and wide.
    I totally agree - provided the guy pointing a firearm at you is doing so "innocently". Thing is - there is that moment of decision - does this person, who is sighting in on what appears to be YOU - intend to use the firearm in his hands? You don't KNOW his intent. Given his APPEARANCE - aiming at you - the indication is YES he does intend you harm - so you must make a snap decision based on that. At that point its a "him or me" equation - and if it comes to that - I'm gonna let "him" be the bullet catcher every damned time.

    Would hindsight be 20/20? Absolutely. But that wouldn't make the decision to defend yourself from what appeared to be an imminent attack of lethal force wrong or unreasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    So, good training is shooting someone that has no intention of harming you or anyone else? I don't think I want any of that training. I think you should turn yourself in to the police and ask that they put you in jail, if you have been trained to the point that you have lost control of your ability to restrain yourself. You need to be reprogrammed by a "sysadmin".
    So you happen to see someone aiming a rifle at you and you naturally assume they have no intention of harming you and that the gun is unloaded so nothing bad could possibly happen? Ok - that is your right - and hopefull your moniker here will not prove to be prophetic because of it. However I firmly believe it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Choosing to defend yourself from what would appear to be an imminent, deadly danger can hardly be defined as "lost control" or an inability to restrain oneself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I am sure that shooting someone in at a gun store, gun show, or range pointing a gun at you would be looked at as unreasonable unless a confirmed threat was noted.
    People with good training should able to determine between the two.
    Ahh yes - another "don't shoot until your shot at" advocate. So you teach your students that they must wait until a BG shoots first before they can react to a threat? You just totally ignore what Wisconson Statute 949.48 says when you teach? Basic rule of safety in firearms means you treat every one of them as if it is loaded - right? Well, for most people, a loaded firearm pointed at them would constitute a situation where: "... the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself." (949.48)
    If that is the training you provide - then I wouldn't consider your training "good" in any sense of the word - especially since it doesn't fall in line with the laws of your state.

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    Deliberately pointing a gun at someone is both dangerous and bad manners.
    Exactly. While I don't believe anyone should take a round for mere bad manners - presenting a lethal threat to others IS a valid reason for someone to defend themselves.

    Yes - in a place where firearms are zip-tied, etc - then such an action would be an OVER-reaction. Is it when on a live range? Or in a place like your local wal-mart or sports store that sells not just firearms? Funny - I've seen this forum defend LEO's who have used lethal force against people who were carrying a TOY gun - yet somehow many seem to think that a LAC does not have the same right to use deadly force to defend himself or herself from an apparent deadly danger.

    Thankfully - most States have determined that an individual has the right to defend themself from any reasonably apparent lethal threat - without having to wait until they catch lead first.
    Last edited by drsysadmin; 08-31-2016 at 08:46 PM.

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    Many have seen guys at the range swipe the muzzle in a way that it momentarily points at another (not cool).

    Vs. seeing a guy shoulder a one shot rifle and point it directly at you.

    I think we can distinguish between the two different things.

    I have not shot anyone at a range...never even came to the need to assess the need to.


    Being shot at a range is a very rare occurrence ... it does occasionally happens, sometimes resulting in death.

    For me, its not a concern that needs addressing beyond those things already in place.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    There is no 949.48...perhaps 939.48

    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat...tes/939/III/48

    Cops receive special dispensation where the use of a firearm is concerned. Example; A Mom is in jail for shooting a intruder that was in her 16 y/o daughter's bedroom.

    http://kfor.com/2016/08/29/oklahoma-...hters-bedroom/

    This case could have dire consequences for Okies desiring to protect their families while in their castle.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    There is no 949.48...perhaps 939.48

    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat...tes/939/III/48

    Cops receive special dispensation where the use of a firearm is concerned. Example; A Mom is in jail for shooting a intruder that was in her 16 y/o daughter's bedroom.

    http://kfor.com/2016/08/29/oklahoma-...hters-bedroom/

    This case could have dire consequences for Okies desiring to protect their families while in their castle.
    Many states have self defense and other similar statutes as raise-able or affirmative defenses. This means police do not have to consider the possible defenses that would make a shooting completely justifiable as they do not know if the shooter will utilize the defense or not as it (they) is (are) a waive-able defense. OK maybe like that, I don't know.

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    For me, it was more location based. Had this happened on the street, there would be a different story. In a gun shop, at a show, or even a range it is more than likely an innocent mistake, and is not something to rectify with drawing my own weapon. Now, if I am out in the street or in another situation and see a gun aimed at me, then there is more of an ill intention, and would not hesitate to draw my own firearm. I feel that "location, location, location" also is applicable to this sort of thing.

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freki View Post
    For me, it was more location based. Had this happened on the street, there would be a different story. In a gun shop, at a show, or even a range it is more than likely an innocent mistake, and is not something to rectify with drawing my own weapon. Now, if I am out in the street or in another situation and see a gun aimed at me, then there is more of an ill intention, and would not hesitate to draw my own firearm. I feel that "location, location, location" also is applicable to this sort of thing.
    Be on the 'going home' side....RE 101.
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    There is no 949.48...perhaps 939.48

    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat...tes/939/III/48

    Cops receive special dispensation where the use of a firearm is concerned. Example; A Mom is in jail for shooting a intruder that was in her 16 y/o daughter's bedroom.

    http://kfor.com/2016/08/29/oklahoma-...hters-bedroom/

    This case could have dire consequences for Okies desiring to protect their families while in their castle.
    The age of consent in OK is 16 the man was the girls boy friend and most likely was invited in and had been invited there several times before.

    Being invited does not make you an intruder having a daughter that likes men does not give you the right to shoot said men.

    The mother over reacted, I have seen this before mothers who can not believe their girls are sexually active and want to put all the blame on the man.
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  22. #22
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    It is the totality of the circumstances that make the situation.
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    https://gfycat.com/MediocreThunderousElephant

    This guy gets it...gun safety

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    The age of consent in OK is 16 the man was the girls boy friend and most likely was invited in and had been invited there several times before.

    Being invited does not make you an intruder having a daughter that likes men does not give you the right to shoot said men.

    The mother over reacted, I have seen this before mothers who can not believe their girls are sexually active and want to put all the blame on the man.
    The linked article doesn't give any details of the relationship between the 31 year old "man" and the 16 year old girl other than the man was found in the girl's bedroom. Taking the clearly desired inference that there was an intimate, but consensual relationship....

    Any "man" mature enough to be sweating up the sheets with his girlfriend, ought to have the good sense to consider on what kind of reception he might get at his girlfriend's home, especially late at night, or early in the morning before visitors might be expected. A little basic decency and respect for the girl's parents, the homeowners, would suggest that short of an open invitation to bump fuzzies in the girl's bed, the "man" ought to be finding a different location for their "dates". This is not to suggest any kind of license to shoot older men sleeping with our daughters. But Heinlein's quote about an armed society being polite does seem to have some play here.

    In most regards, the same things would apply to a 31 year old woman banging a 16 year boy. The one difference might be the degree to which the female presents a "reasonable man" fear of physical danger to the homeowner who discovers her in his or her child's bedroom.

    Of course, whether the mom acted reasonably or illegally hinges or her state of mind. Did she know the man and shoot him out of anger or vengeance, knowing full well he posed no risk? Or was the man unknown to her such that she might have reasonably believed he posed a danger to her daughter, the other younger child in the home, and/or herself?

    I believe the forum has previously discussed a case in which the daughter actually screamed "rape" (or something to that effect) when daddy caught her (unknown to dad) boyfriend in bed with her. In that case, the dad acted reasonably, while the daughter should have been charged with some kind of negligent homicide, at least.

    This article is mute on these key points.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 09-06-2016 at 05:29 PM.

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