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Thread: Morehead preemption violation

  1. #1
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    Morehead preemption violation

    The post about the Danville swimming pool, got me interested in some city ordinances that I had put away for a while. I found these back in 2012, when KC3 was deciding what violations where serious enough for lawsuits. I had put aside some that were not very serious and we concentrated on the worst. I had forgotten about these and started through them this weekend. On Sunday, I found one from the City of Morehead. Actually it was a little more serious that I had remembered. This was the last one discussed and just barely missed the cut for a lawsuit. I remember saying that the mayor of Morehead had been very polite and cooperative in our discussions about the "No Guns" signs at the Morehead Convention Center and I suggested we cut them some slack. Then I failed to follow up. Here is Morehead city ordinance 22:2006:

    § 35.031 WEAPONS IN THE WORKPLACE.

    (A) Employees are prohibited from carrying, possessing or storing a deadly weapon while on-duty, or upon city property, including vehicles and equipment owned or controlled by the city while on-duty or off-duty except as listed below:
    (1) Sworn police officers of the city.
    (2) Animal Control officers of the city or an employee acting officially in the capacity of the Animal Control officer as approved by the Mayor.
    (B) Deadly weapon shall mean:
    (1) Any weapon from which a shot, readily capable of producing death or other serious physical injury, may be discharged.
    (2) Any knife, except an ordinary pocketknife or other knife routinely used in the performance of city duties.
    (3) Billy, nightstick or club.
    (4) Blackjack or slapjack.
    (5) Nunchaku karate sticks.
    (6) Shuriken or death star.
    (C) Artificial knuckles made from metal, plastic or other similar hard material.
    (Ord. 22:2006, passed 8-17-06)

    Sunday night, I sent the mayor of Morehead an email about it. This morning, I received a response that it had been sent to the city attorney for review. This afternoon, I was CC'ed on an email response from the city attorney back to the mayor saying that I was correct and the city needs to fix this. They claim to be in the midst of a complete rewrite of their personnel handbook and will fix it there, also. Later the mayor sent me another message saying that he would keep me advised on the progress on this. He said that they hope to have an amended ordinance for introduction at the September meeting of the City Council. This is pretty quick action for a government. Sometimes they can drag their feet for weeks, before doing anything. Everything was very polite and friendly, just the way it should be. I have sent the mayor a message and asked how they intend to fix it. They could repeal the whole thing or just remove the reference to firearms. In the past, I've experienced a little resistance from some cities about guns and employees. It seems that many of them never comtemplated that 65.870 applied to employees and it took a little time, and a little reading, for that to sink in. After rereading the statute a few times and not being able to find any exception for "personnel" policies, they usually start to come around.
    Last edited by gutshot; 08-22-2016 at 06:45 PM.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

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    Regular Member davidmcbeth's Avatar
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    I think that when they violate a law it results in emotional stress for people. They should be sued for this emotional stress that THEY CAUSED.

    Maybe they should have never written such laws?

    These antis need to pay through their pocketbooks.

    Want to make a law in respect to our RKBA ... best make sure its legal and it stays legal and that THEY follow the law.

    You can always be polite and civil .... that does not mean you have to make a request instead of a demand.

    Its not very polite and civil to have a law that is unlawful IMO...
    Do not take any postings to be the opinion of the poster .. poster may be posting opinions of others and not necessarily himself ... carry on

    "Filing a notice of trespass with your local, county, state authorities , to keep all town employees off your land, would cut down on the government from interfering or harassing you, at least put you in a little bit stronger legal position" .. chk you local laws (disclaimer)

    If a posting looks like its funny - its meant to be so-

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    When you hold 4 aces in your hand, you can afford to say "please" and "thank you."

    Such goes a long way to a better understanding and a receptive audience in the future.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member davidmcbeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    When you hold 4 aces in your hand, you can afford to say "please" and "thank you."

    Such goes a long way to a better understanding and a receptive audience in the future.
    Sure. Please pay me $150,000 for the mental anguish I have suffered.

    Your welcome.

    BTW ... I am usually always nice as pie in my suits and my court appearances...unless my legal strategy leans me otherwise.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 08-22-2016 at 08:56 PM.
    Do not take any postings to be the opinion of the poster .. poster may be posting opinions of others and not necessarily himself ... carry on

    "Filing a notice of trespass with your local, county, state authorities , to keep all town employees off your land, would cut down on the government from interfering or harassing you, at least put you in a little bit stronger legal position" .. chk you local laws (disclaimer)

    If a posting looks like its funny - its meant to be so-

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    When the trust and cooperation of legislators/politicians are gained, it is priceless.

    VCDL in Virginia has captured that element to the point that some of our elected representatives will run bills by VCDL before submitting them.

    You might line your pockets with silver. VCDL takes many different approaches to the benefit of many.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Sure. Please pay me $150,000 for the mental anguish I have suffered.

    Your welcome.

    BTW ... I am usually always nice as pie in my suits and my court appearances...unless my legal strategy leans me otherwise.


    $150,000 would not come close to covering the "mental anguish" davidmcbeth's foolishness has caused members of this forum.
    Last edited by gutshot; 08-23-2016 at 09:05 AM.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

    Samuel Adams









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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post


    $150,000 would not come close to covering the "mental anguish" davidmcbeth's foolishness has caused members of this forum.

    that was per person Gutshot...per person...

    ipse
    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act. Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Do not try to bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you will see this is not the spoon that bends. It is only yourself.

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  8. #8
    Regular Member davidmcbeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post


    $150,000 would not come close to covering the "mental anguish" davidmcbeth's foolishness has caused members of this forum.
    Unfortunately for you, you have caused yourself too much brain damage as evidenced by your posts in the past, making any anguish you may have suffered worth about 1 cent.

    Be happy to settle w/o admitting liability ...where to send that check?
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 08-23-2016 at 12:28 PM.
    Do not take any postings to be the opinion of the poster .. poster may be posting opinions of others and not necessarily himself ... carry on

    "Filing a notice of trespass with your local, county, state authorities , to keep all town employees off your land, would cut down on the government from interfering or harassing you, at least put you in a little bit stronger legal position" .. chk you local laws (disclaimer)

    If a posting looks like its funny - its meant to be so-

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    This morning, the City Clerk of Morehead sent me the agenda for Monday's Morehead City Council meeting. On the second page, item #9 says:

    9.1st Reading of an Ordinance Amending the City of Morehead,
    Code of Ordinances, Title 3, Administration, Chapter 35,
    Personnel, Section 35.031 Weapons in the Workplace of the
    City of Morehead Code of Ordinances to bring said Ordinance
    into Compliance with KRS 65.870


    For anyone that wants to see the complete agenda click this link:
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...6%20Agenda.pdf

    It will take one more meeting for a second reading and final adoption of this amendment, but I have been assured that it will happen.

    Last week after I sent an email to the Mayor of Morehead, I got a call from Andrea Shindelbower. Andrea is the head of the legal dept. at Ky. League of Cities. She wanted to know if it was the position of KC3 that KRS 65.870 applies to "employment policies" and if that had ever been ruled on in court. I told her that only one city that KC3 sued wanted to go to court and that suit didn't involve "employment policies" so the courts have never ruled on this, but that no one at KC3 could find an exception for "employment policies" in the statutes and if she could find one, please point it out to me. She never called back, so I guess this was my answer. Ky League of Cities has always been very helpful in trying to educate their members on Ky. gun laws and urging them to comply. KLC furnishes the liability insurance to their members and doesn't want to pay any claims. They also seem to think that the city governments should obey the law. I have never encountered any "antigun bias" at KLC. I think it is odd that the head of the legal dept at KLC calls me for legal advice.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

    Samuel Adams









  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Ky League of Cities has always been very helpful in trying to educate their members on Ky. gun laws and urging them to comply. KLC furnishes the liability insurance to their members and doesn't want to pay any claims. They also seem to think that the city governments should obey the law. I have never encountered any "antigun bias" at KLC. I think it is odd that the head of the legal dept at KLC calls me for legal advice.
    I think that's very telling, and flattering too. They know you are VERY well informed on the laws. Along the same lines, I've often been told that the founding members of KC3 practically drafted the final language of Kentucky's concealed carry licensure law. They knew what they wanted (even better than many of the lawmakers) and because those founders lived and worked in Frankfort, they had a very good personal relationship with the Representatives and Senators. There's no better kind of networking than the cordial, face=to-face variety.

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    On Monday, Oct. 10, the Morehead City Council had the 2nd reading and final adoption of a new, amended ordinance about "Weapons in the Workplace". The Mayor sent me a copy of the new ordinance today. I had not seen or heard anything about it previously. I was a little surprised by Morehead's new ordinance. The ban on "weapons" carried by city employees while on duty remains as written before. What has changed is that, for the purposes of the ordinance, the definition of a "weapon" no longer includes firearms. So weapons are banned, but firearms are not weapons, so they are OK. I think this is very deceptive. There will be many people that will read the new ordinance and not understand that they can now carry a gun at work. I believe that is intentional. I have seen this before. Louisville Metro did the same thing 3 years ago with one of their ordinances. I can see nothing unlawful about the new ordinance. Unfortunately, the people that are most likely to misunderstand it could be city dept. heads and supervisors. This is an invitation to a misunderstanding. When that happens, there may not be any more friendly letters from KC3.

    Moreheads new ordinance can be seen here:


    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/71293583/Ordinance%20No.%2023-2016%20(1).pdf
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

    Samuel Adams









  12. #12
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    Rhetorical question----"Are firearms the ONLY "arm" in the PEOPLES "right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"? Would seem to be by the preceding report!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I believe that is called an end run.

    See, we are in compliance, but people will still think/conclude that they are restricted just like before.

    Suspect that they knew exactly how the ordinance would be interpreted by the man on the street.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I believe that is called an end run.

    See, we are in compliance, but people will still think/conclude that they are restricted just like before.

    Suspect that they knew exactly how the ordinance would be interpreted by the man on the street.
    And interpretation of the ordinance by the loving, kind, reasonable, will informed, only wanting to help make sure your rights are not infringed agent of the state wearing that uniform with his trusty weapon in the holster just may be VERY confused trying to figure out how a FIREARM is not a WEAPON!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Rhetorical question----"Are firearms the ONLY "arm" in the PEOPLES "right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"? Would seem to be by the preceding report!
    Of course not, but firearms are the only "arms" to be covered by statewide preemption. If you think you can make a case for a constitutional violation by cities like Morehead, I'll stand aside and applaud your efforts. I, myself, have never had any luck with that approach. They either don't know what you are talking about or don't care. It is difficult enough to get them to obey a plainly written state law, but, so far, that approach has produced more results than anything else I have ever tried. I'd rather not muddy the waters by talking about the 2nd Amendment, the founding fathers, 1776, obscure court case citations and anything else that will just confuse these people or be used by them to confuse the issue or other people. Arguing constitutional issues will get you in a courtroom very quickly and it will be very time consuming and very expensive. I try to keep a very narrow focus. I'll let you clean up the others that I leave behind. I am in no hurry. There are plenty of firearms violations and there has never seemed to be anybody willing to take any of them on before I get to them, no matter how long it takes me to get around to them. I am not afraid that I'll lose any work. I like the low hanging fruit. I'll let somebody else climb to the top of the tree and fight from there.
    Last edited by gutshot; 10-12-2016 at 10:23 PM.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

    Samuel Adams









  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Of course not, but firearms are the only "arms" to be covered by statewide preemption. If you think you can make a case for a constitutional violation by cities like Morehead, I'll stand aside and applaud your efforts. I, myself, have never had any luck with that approach. They either don't know what you are talking about or don't care. It is difficult enough to get them to obey a plainly written state law, but, so far, that approach has produced more results than anything else I have ever tried. I'd rather not muddy the waters by talking about the 2nd Amendment, the founding fathers, 1776, obscure court case citations and anything else that will just confuse these people or be used by them to confuse the issue or other people. Arguing constitutional issues will get you in a courtroom very quickly and it will be very time consuming and very expensive. I try to keep a very narrow focus. I'll let you clean up the others that I leave behind. I am in no hurry. There are plenty of firearms violations and there has never seemed to be anybody willing to take any of them on before I get to them, no matter how long it takes me to get around to them. I am not afraid that I'll lose any work. I like the low hanging fruit. I'll let somebody else climb to the top of the tree and fight from there.
    Please, do not let my paltry actions impede you in your grand endeavors!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Please, do not let my paltry actions impede you in your grand endeavors!
    I had no intention of doing anything like that.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

    Samuel Adams









  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    On Monday, Oct. 10, the Morehead City Council had the 2nd reading and final adoption of a new, amended ordinance about "Weapons in the Workplace". The Mayor sent me a copy of the new ordinance today. I had not seen or heard anything about it previously. I was a little surprised by Morehead's new ordinance. The ban on "weapons" carried by city employees while on duty remains as written before. What has changed is that, for the purposes of the ordinance, the definition of a "weapon" no longer includes firearms. So weapons are banned, but firearms are not weapons, so they are OK. I think this is very deceptive. There will be many people that will read the new ordinance and not understand that they can now carry a gun at work. I believe that is intentional. I have seen this before. Louisville Metro did the same thing 3 years ago with one of their ordinances. I can see nothing unlawful about the new ordinance. Unfortunately, the people that are most likely to misunderstand it could be city dept. heads and supervisors. This is an invitation to a misunderstanding. When that happens, there may not be any more friendly letters from KC3.
    Nicely done on getting the ordinance technically in compliance with State law. Employees are now technically covered. Anyone given grief over what is completely allowable under policy should have a nice case against the manager who fails to read, understand, and properly apply clearly written employment policies. Would that a protected minority ends up being the first victim of such a misunderstanding.

    It looks like what is left as being banned amounts to knives (other than regular pocket knives), and a long list of "weapons" almost never carried by anyone except wannabees. Is there really a problem with throwing stars or other martial arts weapons being used for nefarious purposes on any regular basis?

    Steady progress, even if somewhat slow, results in large improvements over time.

    Congrats on the current battle. Best of luck with the on going war.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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