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Thread: Shall Not Be Infringed, David Keene’s solemn warning about gun rights, out 11 October

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    Shall Not Be Infringed, David Keene’s solemn warning about gun rights, out 11 October

    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-29-2016 at 08:00 PM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHunter View Post
    Add to that the news that ATF has drastically changed their rules about "wetted nitrocellulose" with no grace period for manufacturers and vendors.
    If these regs are allowed to stand, not only will it dry up the ammo for the civilian market, there won't be any powder for reloaders. Even the military's ammo supplies would be affected, but, that MAY be what they intended.

    If they can't ban the guns, render them useless with no ammo.
    Nitro is used in many many industries, not just in the gun industries.

    http://www.ammoland.com/2016/08/atf-...#axzz4Ikveu3Mq

    I don't think it will have any impact. Wet nitro is transported (and has been for 50+ yrs) w/o incident. Dry nitro is indeed dangerous.

    http://www.tnc.com.tw/en-global/Prod...rocellulose_en

    ^^ a tech data sheet on an industrial grade of nitro (there are other types etc.)

    It may result in folks manufacturing their own nitro on site as its not hard to make.

    Its cousin, nitroglycerin is also not a difficult material to manufacture. Either is TNT or even C4. All can be made on small or large scale.
    I have synthesized all of these materials so I don't know what the goal is but if it is to limit ammo it will not work.

    Maybe people will start to learn how to make all of these materials ... necessity is the mother of invention. Imagine millions of folks manufacturing these materials. Classic untended consequences.

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    No President today, or come November, or anytime in the future, will said President attempt to confiscate the weapons of law abiding citizens.. It will never happen, the fear mongering rhetoric from both parties will not deceive the educated 2nd amendment advocate,nor the citizen who understands his/her God given Natural Rights..
    My .02
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    No President today, or come November, or anytime in the future, will said President attempt to confiscate the weapons of law abiding citizens.. It will never happen, the fear mongering rhetoric from both parties will not deceive the educated 2nd amendment advocate,nor the citizen who understands his/her God given Natural Rights..
    My .02
    That is a matter of opinion opinion of matter.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    That is a matter of opinion opinion of matter.
    LOL But I assume that if they passed a law requiring you to turn over all you gats, you would. Right? It would be a law after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    That is a matter of opinion opinion of matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    LOL But I assume that if they passed a law requiring you to turn over all you gats, you would. Right? It would be a law after all.
    I did not address that in that manner, with that meaning.

    It is not nice to put words in someone's mouth.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I did not address that in that manner, with that meaning.

    It is not nice to put words in someone's mouth.
    Well, it was posed as a query ... no answer I see. People are free to make up your answers for you in this case.

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    "Update:
    A number of commenters are misreading this article. The headline doesn’t say I’ll hand them them over — it says you will. And yeah, I’m trolling you a bit with the tone of this piece by saying what you “will” and “won’t” do, but it’s because I’m trying to slap you awake. The main point that’s being made is this: if you’re waiting for a door-to-door confiscation, or even a national gun registry, then you’ll be waiting forever. Folks who like to talk about a causus belli will need get more creative in coming up with a “bright line”, because the ones so many of you are waiting for won’t ever appear. If this article has spurred you to think more clearly about what the end of liberty might actually look like, and about what you’ll do under scenarios other than the classic door-to-door confiscation scenario, then it has done its job."

    http://www.alloutdoor.com/2016/08/31...kly+Newsletter
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    The key here, I think, is to consider the whole picture. Each person who loudly proclaims that they will resist to the death any form of gun confiscation... really needs to give some serious thought to all the other areas of their life where the non-voluntary government exercises power to disrupt, prohibit and destroy their life and liberty. How one responds to those intrusions and infringements will very much indicate the actual response to gun confiscation...

    Seems that too many people make noise about their "gun rights," while leaving all of their individual rights - including the natural right to self defense - trickling down the drain, pretty much unnoticed.

    Maybe it is past time to recognize that the non-voluntary government does not have any legitimate authority to limit, prohibit or destroy individual liberty. The greatest danger is that far too many people actually believe that this authority exists, and will fight to preserve it!
    Last edited by MamaLiberty; 09-06-2016 at 12:16 PM.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    That is a matter of opinion opinion of matter.
    Lets look at facts then

    Few countries have a 2nd amendment - very few (I think less than 5 now currently do). Most based on ours.

    Look at countries that used to have a 2nd amendment and then removed it from their constitutions (as I have said before, the 2nd amendment is just a law ~ you should base arguments not on laws but on rights folks) and see what happened after that.

    In those countries what removed a 2nd amendment provision, some have had confiscations afterwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    "Update:
    A number of commenters are misreading this article. The headline doesn’t say I’ll hand them them over — it says you will. And yeah, I’m trolling you a bit with the tone of this piece by saying what you “will” and “won’t” do, but it’s because I’m trying to slap you awake. The main point that’s being made is this: if you’re waiting for a door-to-door confiscation, or even a national gun registry, then you’ll be waiting forever.
    It is a nice little essay that might cause a few folks to think. Not touched upon is the whole "bury the guns in the wilderness" mentality. Same problem as being off grid today: Not near enough to make a material difference. And it isn't like the number is going to grow or an individual's skill with the buried guns will get better having not been able to practice for some number of years. More importantly, a buried gun does nothing for day-to-day self or home -defense. It does nothing to perpetuate the gun culture of self-reliance, castle doctrine, no-duty-to-retreat, and similar laws.

    Really, if the choice is between turning them in for some compensation or burying them, turn them in and get something for them. Burying them gets nothing, ever, while carrying the risk of prosecution and the types of "civil" penalties discussed in the essay.

    That all said, there is no doubt that there are those who want to confiscate our guns. It has happened in NY City. Do we really think the scary looking gun ban of '94 would have grandfathered in existing guns if the grabbers could have gone for full confiscation? Whether confiscation is door to door, or simply felony penalties for getting caught with such a gun are not materially different. What good is a gun you have to keep hidden? The author of the essay is wrong. We've not been "allowed" to keep our guns. We've kept them because we've been politically active and made clear that--in most States and at the federal level--attacking our RKBA is a career ender for those politicians doing the attacking.

    And this where the essay really fell short.

    Contemplating what to do if the feds go door to door, or what to do if they don't go door to door but impose a ban, is a waste of time and brain power. Buying the necessary supplies and equipment to bury guns for such an eventuality is a waste of limited resources. (Having a few supplies including firearms/ammo secreted where they can be accessed for resupplying if one needs to bug out of a major urban area due to local unrest or natural disaster is a different animal, altogether, IMO.)

    The proper use of limited resources is to make sure the government never bans our guns in the first place. And the surest way to do that is the boring, but grown up work of political and social activism. We need to make sure gun grabbing is career ender for politicians in most areas. We need to help our neighbors, friends, and family members support RKBA despite the pop culture and media bias against privately owned firearms.

    Fools dream of war or anarchy as the quick and easy path to greater freedom. The prudent know better. The American Revolution should never have succeeded. It only succeeded after 8 brutal years of death, destruction, and privation. It's success stands in stark contrast to the more typical history of revolution leading to even greater oppression; very much a "out of the frying pan into the fire" kind of situation in most cases.

    Revolutions in France, Russia, China, and other nations directly resulted in even worse governments than the one the people were trying to throw off. Nor can we expect that simply being Americans will guarantee success. The Southern States' attempt at independence failed after claiming some half million lives, another ~600,000 injured (many with lifetime disability), and generations of poverty in the South following the war. It also resulted in the fundamental shift in the power balance between States and feds that continues to be one of the major sources of problems in our nation today.

    The mature, prudent, and learned, know that war is to be avoided whenever possible. Peaceful political processes are far more likely to bring about desired changes, with far less risk of catastrophic failure, than foolish revolution.

    I don't intend to ever hand over my guns because I don't intend to sit back and let my opponents / enemies gather sufficient political strength to ban my guns. Unlike bloody battlefields, nobody writes poems or songs about sitting in legislative hearings, or going door to door to get out the vote for the better candidate. But unlike bloody battlefields, everyone gets to go home and live a peaceful, prosperous life, raising their children, playing with grandkids, and growing old with one's spouse. So long as there is an honorable choice to be made, I will chose the boring path of eternal vigilance over the path that leads to orphans, widows, starvation (read about the horrible privations in much of Europe following WWII), and destruction.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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