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Thread: NM DPS proposal on CCH rules

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    NM DPS proposal on CCH rules

    NM Department of Public Safety (State Police) have proposed rules that I urge you to read. There is no reform to the onerous parts of the CCH licensing in NM (ie 2 yr requalifications, multiple handguns listed, 15 hr class room instruction). However, they want to do away with NM citizens using other states CCL that are reciprocal to NM. Also, many many controlling rules for instructors. One that stands out is one instructor per student for dynamic training. what! If these make it to the 2017 legislature, I will be fighting that legislation. These changes need to be stopped.

    http://www.dps.state.nm.us/index.php...ed-carry-rule/

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    Regular Member qednick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdcguns View Post
    NM Department of Public Safety (State Police) have proposed rules that I urge you to read. There is no reform to the onerous parts of the CCH licensing in NM (ie 2 yr requalifications, multiple handguns listed, 15 hr class room instruction). However, they want to do away with NM citizens using other states CCL that are reciprocal to NM. Also, many many controlling rules for instructors. One that stands out is one instructor per student for dynamic training. what! If these make it to the 2017 legislature, I will be fighting that legislation. These changes need to be stopped.

    http://www.dps.state.nm.us/index.php...ed-carry-rule/
    Will you be making the public hearing on the 15th to raise objections?

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdcguns View Post
    NM Department of Public Safety (State Police) have proposed rules that I urge you to read. There is no reform to the onerous parts of the CCH licensing in NM (ie 2 yr requalifications, multiple handguns listed, 15 hr class room instruction). However, (1) they want to do away with NM citizens using other states CCL that are reciprocal to NM. Also, (2) many many controlling rules for instructors. One that stands out is (3) one instructor per student for dynamic training. what! If these make it to the 2017 legislature, I will be fighting that legislation. These changes need to be stopped.

    http://www.dps.state.nm.us/index.php...ed-carry-rule/
    ok, rdcguns or should a welcome be extended to personnel from RDC Guns ?
    1. Nowhere do i see from a comparison of current DPS 10.8.2.17, LICENSE RENEWAL AND TRANSFER: and the proposed section where they want to do away anything from the citizens of NM. in fact the current DPs standard has a requirement for citizenship, 1(a), new document does not!
    now maybe you are getting confused w/10.8.2.29, RECIPROCITY: where the new document states in
    H: No reciprocity shall be afforded to a license issued by another state to a New Mexico resident. basically stating a NM resident can not use a UT/VA/FL/ad nauseam non-resident permit to transfer to a NM CCW! do not see a problem with that concept since those states do not have a live fire component to their firearm's courses.

    2. might you be a smidge more specific on your use of the term "MANY, MANY" for controlling rules on instructors? only new criteria i find objectionable to was the DPS is planning to institute 10.8.2.25
    SERVICE TRAINING CYCLE FOR CONCEALED CARRY INSTRUCTORS:
    A. All New Mexico approved instructors shall receive a minimum of eight (8) hours of training bi-annually. (every six months...really)
    B. Required training may be conducted by the department’s concealed carry program at regional locations and, where scheduling will allow, the concealed carry program will assign staff to instruct the course.

    i sure wish they would articulate in the document this includes nice LE & Mounted patrol instructors. (letter(s) being drafted to Ms Romero, Chief Kassetas, as well as Cabinet Secretary Scott Weaver stating my concern!)

    3. again, from a comparison from the current DPS 10.8.24, RESPONSIBILITIES OF APPROVED INSTRUCTOR, there is currently NOcriteria regarding dynamic or lowlight live fire training mentioned whatsoever. yes, B(3) has been amended to ADD and mandate the following:
    a. including no more than five students per instructor during daylight training,
    b. no more than three students per instructor for lowlight training,
    c. and no more than one student per instructor for dynamic training such as shooting on the move.

    first, allow me to say, where and why would the good citizens of NM need this kind of 'specialized' type of training in the daily carry of their firearms?
    second, sorry you are upset regarding this stipulation and want multiple 'newbie' gun owners running about firing their firearms helter sketler on a range w/o an instructor nearby?
    third, if you do not see a need for the requirement...hummm is about the most i can muster.

    reference 2 again...got specifics ?

    for those truly interested here is an ad hoc comparison of the two documents...i did not get excited if both said the same thing in tone and tenor...

    ipse
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by solus; 09-09-2016 at 10:17 PM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    --snipped--
    A. All New Mexico approved instructors shall receive a minimum of eight (8) hours of training bi-annually. (every six months...really)
    Bi-annually = every two years.

    Semi-annually = every six months.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Bi-annually = every two years.

    Semi-annually = every six months.
    hummm seems to be some confusion...

    Biannual vs. biennial
    Something that is biannual occurs twice every year. Something that is biennial (1) occurs once every two years, or (2) exists or last for two years.

    http://grammarist.com/usage/biannual-biennial/

    see why i wish it cleared up by DPS...

    owe me a strawberry/bannana milkshake grape!!

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    hummm seems to be some confusion...

    Biannual vs. biennial
    Something that is biannual occurs twice every year. Something that is biennial (1) occurs once every two years, or (2) exists or last for two years.

    http://grammarist.com/usage/biannual-biennial/

    see why i wish it cleared up by DPS...

    owe me a strawberry/bannana milkshake grape!!

    ipse
    I'd rather owe it to you, than beat you out of it.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    email regarding service training and citizen's dynamic live fire concerns sent to DPS cabinet secretary and Ms Romero in ABQ office.

    haven't kicked back as non-deliverable (yet) so...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member wabbit's Avatar
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    so it begins...

    apparently, DPS sent their NMAC 10.8.2 document in, as written ~ so bi-annual is mandated for NM's Conceal Carry Instructors.

    DPS sent out an email on the 18th of this month advising of four (4) courses mandated within the next two weeks.

    for those instructors who might not got the first wave announcement:

    For Santa Fe on Monday, 25 September:
    Location is LEA Auditorium at DPS HQ Buildings, 4491 Cerrillos Rd., Santa Fe, NM 87507
    Time: 0830 - 1630

    For Las Cruces on Wednesday, 27 September:
    Location is 4055 Sonoma Ranch Blvd., Las Cruces, NM 88011
    Time: 0800 - 1630

    For BOTH ABQ locations, Friday 29 September and Saturday 7 October:
    Location is the COORS location of Calibers, who has very generously offered the use of their large classroom at that location.
    The address is 9320 Coors Blvd. NW, Albuquerque, NM 87114
    Time: 0900 1630 for Wednesday, 27 September
    Time: 0900 1630 for Saturday, 7 October

    (of interest Calibers is a private enterprise who deals in firearms and has a range but just got unlimited publicity for their generous offer)

    Instructor's refresher course is eight (8) in length!

    DPS, in their email announcement, did not furnish any info regarding fees, what instructors are to bring, e.g., firearms or ammo or PPE?

    what baffles me is to become an instructor you must be LE, Military, National Organization instructor and DPS is going to teach them what in this refresher course as no syllabus nor curriculum has been provided.

    Finally, 10.8.2 mandates NM Citizens who have a CCH to attend refresher training every TWO years...

    so glad the Land of Disenchantment is alive and well!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wabbit View Post
    what baffles me is to become an instructor you must be LE, Military, National Organization instructor and DPS is going to teach them what in this refresher course as no syllabus nor curriculum has been provided.

    Finally, 10.8.2 mandates NM Citizens who have a CCH to attend refresher training every TWO years...

    so glad the Land of Disenchantment is alive and well!
    1- I think you're reading this wrong. You don't necessarily need to be one of those- it's among the requirements. You could take an instructor's class here in the state and apply as well from what I see.

    2- This has always been the case. Actually, it's refresh at 2 years, renew at 4.

    3- No one is forced to be here, or to do this. It's a choice.

    I have 2 perspectives on this all. On one hand, I do not like oppressive requirements so far and away above most other states' requirements. On the other hand, it is not a bad thing to have both instructors and license holders renew their qualifications and knowledge of any changes to the laws every so often.

    There is a rep who tried to do away with the 2-yr refresher a couple of years ago. It made it to committee and then stalled. I plan on requesting he bring it up again for the next session. Maybe you could do the same- I believe his name is Brian Egolf, in Santa Fe.

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    Regular Member wabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    1- I think you're reading this wrong. You don't necessarily need to be one of those- it's among the requirements. You could take an instructor's class here in the state and apply as well from what I see.

    2- This has always been the case. Actually, it's refresh at 2 years, renew at 4.

    3- No one is forced to be here, or to do this. It's a choice.

    I have 2 perspectives on this all. On one hand, I do not like oppressive requirements so far and away above most other states' requirements. On the other hand, it is not a bad thing to have both instructors and license holders renew their qualifications and knowledge of any changes to the laws every so often.

    There is a rep who tried to do away with the 2-yr refresher a couple of years ago. It made it to committee and then stalled. I plan on requesting he bring it up again for the next session. Maybe you could do the same- I believe his name is Brian Egolf, in Santa Fe.
    1. Whom do you recommend, whom are not LE instructors, military, NRA, CMP, 4H, ad nauseam, to teach NM's citizens to become a qualified NM CCH instructor as I am sure others who peruse this site might be interested?

    2. AH, thanks for reiterating the requirement to the group; actually, I do believe that is what I stated, quote Finally, 10.8.2 mandates NM Citizens who have a CCH to attend refresher training every TWO years...unquote.

    3. Sorry, your perception of a choice is skew'd because if the state makes the gauntlet too difficult for the NM citizen's to accomplish, there is absolutely no choice to reach the citizen's goal of self protection!

    Did the concept ever come to mind, the myriad of oversight is nothing more than a 'Jim Crow' regulation against a NM population ethnicity?

    Hummm, other state's management of their citizen's concealed programs seem to be functioning quite well as I have not heard of concealed instructors or citizens running amok killing their fellow citizens because they do not impose 'refresher' training on their instructors and card carrying citizens.

    Further, FL, WA, UT seem to do quite well in their concealed carry profit center operations w/o retraining.

    OMG, AK, AZ, AR, ID KS, MA, MS, NH, ND, VT, WV, and WY have permit less conceal carry and searching the great GOOGLE does not show any massacres attributed to these citizens!

    of course, the problem is, like everything else, if NM gets rid of the extreme oversight what the devil are all those DPS folks going to do for employment?

    I am in the process of putting together issue(s) emails to the entire Legislative members, appropriate Secretaries, AG, and of course the Governor! OH ya to the NM concealed instructors also who might not wish to play cuz they would lose their revenue stream!!

    You are, of course, cordially invited to participate if you wish!
    Last edited by wabbit; 09-24-2017 at 12:24 PM.

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    UPDATE

    Quote Originally Posted by wabbit View Post
    so it begins...
    apparently, DPS sent their NMAC 10.8.2 document in, as written ~ so bi-annual is mandated for NM's Conceal Carry Instructors.

    SNIPP

    so glad the Land of Disenchantment is alive and well!
    Seems there are two versions to NM Administrative Code (NMAC) 10.8.25 floating about in the State's system(s): one obscure maintained on the legislative side and the other maintained on the DPS' website.

    Obscure: http://164.64.110.239/nmac/parts/tit...0.008.0002.htm appropriately states "biennially" in section 25.

    DPS' site: http://www.dps.state.nm.us/index.php/10-8-2-nmac/ states "bi-annual' in section 25.

    Recent query to DPS regarding instructor 'refresher curriculum' has not been answered.
    Last edited by wabbit; 09-24-2017 at 12:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wabbit View Post
    1. Whom do you recommend, whom are not LE instructors, military, NRA, CMP, 4H, ad nauseam, to teach NM's citizens to become a qualified NM CCH instructor as I am sure others who peruse this site might be interested?

    2. AH, thanks for reiterating the requirement to the group; actually, I do believe that is what I stated, quote Finally, 10.8.2 mandates NM Citizens who have a CCH to attend refresher training every TWO years...unquote.

    3. Sorry, your perception of a choice is skew'd because if the state makes the gauntlet too difficult for the NM citizen's to accomplish, there is absolutely no choice to reach the citizen's goal of self protection!

    Did the concept ever come to mind, the myriad of oversight is nothing more than a 'Jim Crow' regulation against a NM population ethnicity?

    Hummm, other state's management of their citizen's concealed programs seem to be functioning quite well as I have not heard of concealed instructors or citizens running amok killing their fellow citizens because they do not impose 'refresher' training on their instructors and card carrying citizens.

    Further, FL, WA, UT seem to do quite well in their concealed carry profit center operations w/o retraining.

    OMG, AK, AZ, AR, ID KS, MA, MS, NH, ND, VT, WV, and WY have permit less conceal carry and searching the great GOOGLE does not show any massacres attributed to these citizens!

    of course, the problem is, like everything else, if NM gets rid of the extreme oversight what the devil are all those DPS folks going to do for employment?

    I am in the process of putting together issue(s) emails to the entire Legislative members, appropriate Secretaries, AG, and of course the Governor! OH ya to the NM concealed instructors also who might not wish to play cuz they would lose their revenue stream!!

    You are, of course, cordially invited to participate if you wish!
    1. Personally I don't care what their backgrounds are. Are they good instructors- that's the key. Talk to people they've trained- real references. I know three instructors who are all excellent, and you know what- I have no clue of their backgrounds.

    2. You said refresh. Not renew. It is not refresh every two years. It's refresh at the 2- year point, after renew. Not the same.

    3. Onerous or not, if you want to do it, you have to comply. Or not. It's still a choice. It's not too difficult for all those who have done it. It's really not that difficult at all. If you can't figure it out, maybe there's a reason for that and it may be a good thing after all.

    If you want to make the ethnicity argument, fine. I don't agree with it.

    I didn't say I like it. I have sat in some hearings with liberals who would abolish the right to carry entirely. I have used the same exact argument with them. It always falls on deaf and dumb ears.

    The revenue stream is exactly the reason this state, I suspect, will never lessen its requirements.

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