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Thread: Use of tear gas is not allowed by military .. yet police still use it

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    Use of tear gas is not allowed by military .. yet police still use it

    http://www.charlotteobserver.com/new...103009432.html

    Riots in NC over yet another killing by police. The narrative is that the victim was holding a book.

    The police used tear gas during the riot.

    I believe that the use of "tear gas" should stop.

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    I'm thinking this is a bit misleading.

    The military no longer uses poison gas.

    The military has no real need for tear gas. That said, who says they don't have it to use if they need to?

    Tear gas most certainly has its place. The problem is that it is wrongly used sometimes, or purposely used "accidentally wrongly" to burn alive someone that can't be allowed to talk to the media afterward.
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    Unless things have changed drastically since my days in the military, the Army had both CS and CN grenades, plus other means of deploying those agents. Both of those, incidently, were used in SE Asia during that unpleasantness, mostly by the "tunnel rats".

    Poison gas, such as mustard, phosgene, VX, etc., are proscribed by the Geneva Convention and the Hague Accord under the "Laws of Land Warfare". CS and CN, while very unpleasant and incapacitating, are, with rare exceptions, non-injurious. Persons with respiratory or gastrointestinal issues should be exposed to neither agent.

    Btw, CN will make you think you are going to bring up meals you ate twenty years ago.

    Only reason I know this much is I had to teach a class on the Law of Land Warfare. I also was exposed, in training, to both those agents. Neither is a pleasant experience.

    From what I understand, neither the tear gas (CS) or the pepper spray used by police is as strong as that used by the military.

    Some of you with more recent military experience may be able to shed much more light on the subject.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Last time I talked to a grunt the Army still does tear gas training. Not sure if the MP's still carry pepper spray or not.

    Unless the OP has some citation to such I believe it is more made up stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    I never referred to you or anyone else as a shoeshine boy... I simply told you to "go get your shine box'. Not a racial statement whatsoever..-snip-
    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    -snip- My offer still stands, if you want to do an honest days work, I will send you my antique shine box..

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    There is no better way to detect a poorly fitted gas mask than CS, and you'll notice it a lot sooner than internal radioactive contamination.

    I still have my snot encrusted ballcap from my ammunition ship (USS Paricutin AE-18) firefighting training when we learned to breathe through our noses no matter how BAD it hurt. I probably snotted a gallon in CS training and almost a gallon of diesel smoke doing hot entries.

    The school had a concrete building into which they'd pump a few hundred gallons of gasoline and diesel for us to extinguish, eventually without benefit of breathing apparatus as we learned to breathe the air entrained in the water.

    My shipboard firefighting job was to run with a Red Devil Blower. I was a lot younger then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    There is no better way to detect a poorly fitted gas mask than CS, and you'll notice it a lot sooner than internal radioactive contamination.

    I still have my snot encrusted ballcap from my ammunition ship (USS Paricutin AE-18) firefighting training when we learned to breathe through our noses no matter how BAD it hurt. I probably snotted a gallon in CS training and almost a gallon of diesel smoke doing hot entries.

    The school had a concrete building into which they'd pump a few hundred gallons of gasoline and diesel for us to extinguish, eventually without benefit of breathing apparatus as we learned to breathe the air entrained in the water.

    My shipboard firefighting job was to run with a Red Devil Blower. I was a lot younger then.
    That is snot good!

    Been there and done that - makes me irritable. Others had to hold me back from showing a Captain just how much after he accidentally gave me a face full.
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Last time I talked to a grunt the Army still does tear gas training. Not sure if the MP's still carry pepper spray or not.

    Unless the OP has some citation to such I believe it is more made up stuff.
    Chemical Weapons Convention: Since 1997 may not use riot control agents as a method of war.


    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...3-police-1997/
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyMike View Post
    Chemical Weapons Convention: Since 1997 may not use riot control agents as a method of war.


    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...3-police-1997/
    Pepper spray for LE duty is not war, from your citation. ""Law enforcement including domestic riot control purposes" is "not prohibited under this convention," says Article II (9) (d)."

    I have seen MP on Fort Bragg with pepper spray on their belt, but I have not paid attention for a long time, but they did post 1997. Army MP still go through pepper/tear gas training, and riot training.
    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    I never referred to you or anyone else as a shoeshine boy... I simply told you to "go get your shine box'. Not a racial statement whatsoever..-snip-
    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    -snip- My offer still stands, if you want to do an honest days work, I will send you my antique shine box..

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Pepper spray for LE duty is not war, from your citation. ""Law enforcement including domestic riot control purposes" is "not prohibited under this convention," says Article II (9) (d)."

    I have seen MP on Fort Bragg with pepper spray on their belt, but I have not paid attention for a long time, but they did post 1997. Army MP still go through pepper/tear gas training, and riot training.
    I didn't say LE duty equated to war.

    A citation was asked for with regard to the military use of tear gas/pepper spray.

    By convention, it may not be used as a weapon against enemy fighting forces.
    It may be used as a means for riot control, for example to quell a riot in a PoW camp.

    An Army MP with pepper spray, using it against one of our own, would not be prohibited by the convention.

    Tear gas is used for training purposes to test the correct fit and donning procedures of gas masks.
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyMike View Post
    I didn't say LE duty equated to war.

    A citation was asked for with regard to the military use of tear gas/pepper spray.

    By convention, it may not be used as a weapon against enemy fighting forces.
    It may be used as a means for riot control, for example to quell a riot in a PoW camp.

    An Army MP with pepper spray, using it against one of our own, would not be prohibited by the convention.

    Tear gas is used for training purposes to test the correct fit and donning procedures of gas masks.
    AND that was not a citation that had anything to do with military in a law enforcement situation which is what is being discussed with police. Unless police are in the reserves, or guard they do not go to war.

    The fact is the military STILL uses irritant spray in the same capacity as civilian law enforcement.
    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    I never referred to you or anyone else as a shoeshine boy... I simply told you to "go get your shine box'. Not a racial statement whatsoever..-snip-
    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    -snip- My offer still stands, if you want to do an honest days work, I will send you my antique shine box..

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    Regular Member NavyMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    AND that was not a citation that had anything to do with military in a law enforcement situation which is what is being discussed with police. Unless police are in the reserves, or guard they do not go to war.

    The fact is the military STILL uses irritant spray in the same capacity as civilian law enforcement.
    You might have been exclusivley referring to the military use in a law enforcement situation; others were clearly not limiting the discussion to that narrow use.

    The point I believe that the OP is making is there is a juxtaposition between our military being banned from using a substance on foreign soil in war; yet our law enforcement can use it domestically.
    Last edited by NavyMike; 09-21-2016 at 05:03 PM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyMike View Post
    You might have been exclusivley referring to the military use in a law enforcement situation; others were clearly not limiting the discussion to that narrow use.

    The point I believe that the OP is making is there is a juxtaposition between our military being banned from using a substance on foreign soil in war; yet our law enforcement can use it domestically.
    That is what we are talking about, it is right there in the title of the thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    I never referred to you or anyone else as a shoeshine boy... I simply told you to "go get your shine box'. Not a racial statement whatsoever..-snip-
    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    -snip- My offer still stands, if you want to do an honest days work, I will send you my antique shine box..

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    Regular Member NavyMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    That is what we are talking about, it is right there in the title of the thread.
    Can't believe we're arguing over a driveby posting from Mcbeth!

    I just let him clarify what he meant, and leave it at that.
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

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    Not sure what all the emphasis on CS gas is about.

    Fact: CS gas is neutralized by activated charcoal filters. Been there, done that--personal experience: USMC boot camp.

    How to apply that fact?

    Lets say you have to cross through a riot to get medicine for the baby. Or, lets say you foresee the possibility of having to do that in a few days when the medicine runs out and tensions are rising. Nothing easier. Just pop by your local paint store and buy the mask and filters used by professional painters when spray-painting the interior walls of an office building. Heck, they even have filters that will take out lead paint dust and fumes. No, you don't need the purple lead filters for CS. Regular charcoal filters for spraying residential interior water-borne acrylic wall paint will do fine.

    Wait, though. CS is an irritant--a supremely effective irritant. So, you will need something to protect your eyes when crossing that riot scene for the baby's medicine. Won't do you any good to breathe great without a river of snot from your nose if you stumble into a problem because your vision is totally blurred from all the tears your eyes are making to flush out the irritant. So, goggles are a good idea. If you get those shop goggles from high school, just tape off the little air-holes around the sides.

    Then, you're good to go. The itching on your skin from the CS--I said it was a supremely effective irritant--will be merely a distracting annoyance. You'll get through and baby will get her medicine. Just try not to catch a CS grenade with your forehead, and you'll do fine. Sherwin-Williams and Benjamin Moore are your friend.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    posh, some have enjoyed the experience standing on high street in the middle of an Ohio State 'disturbance' while 'attending' a gathering of like minded individuals actively engaging in a discussion over the unjust 'conflict'...

    wet handkerchiefs work quite nicely, or so i have read!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    posh, some have enjoyed the experience standing on high street in the middle of an Ohio State 'disturbance' while 'attending' a gathering of like minded individuals actively engaging in a discussion over the unjust 'conflict'...

    wet handkerchiefs work quite nicely, or so i have read!!

    ipse
    Urine soaked you mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Urine soaked you mean?

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    i can neither confirm nor deny what substance soaked my bandanna i utilized...tho some were not so discriminating as to find a private place to soak their face coverings and ran afoul of the nice LEs who kept mentioning violating public indecency...

    for those that are not near olde enough...http://columbusneighborhoods.org/nei...s-and-vietnam/

    ipse

    added: as archie & edith hum their trademark song in the background...yes those were the days...
    Last edited by solus; 09-21-2016 at 10:56 PM.
    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act. Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Do not try to bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you will see this is not the spoon that bends. It is only yourself.

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    i can neither confirm nor deny what substance soaked my bandanna i utilized...tho some were not so discriminating as to find a private place to soak their face coverings and ran afoul of the nice LEs who kept mentioning violating public indecency...

    for those that are not near olde enough...http://columbusneighborhoods.org/nei...s-and-vietnam/

    ipse

    added: as archie & edith hum their trademark song in the background...yes those were the days...
    A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
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    During the time of the Madison Wis. protests my brother was attending the UWM he picked up some used tear gas canisters he brought them home. The younger siblings thought oh neat and picked them up there was enough residue left in them to give them to have a eye opening or closing experience.

    On a side note when I moved back to the home farm after our parents passed a couple of years ago I was cleaning out one of the out buildings and found the box of them.


    It brought back memories of some interesting times in this country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    During the time of the Madison Wis. protests my brother was attending the UWM he picked up some used tear gas canisters he brought them home. The younger siblings thought oh neat and picked them up there was enough residue left in them to give them to have a eye opening or closing experience.

    On a side note when I moved back to the home farm after our parents passed a couple of years ago I was cleaning out one of the out buildings and found the box of them.


    It brought back memories of some interesting times in this country.
    regrettably, the times do not seem to have changed as history is repeating itself w/the civil unrest...
    one would've hoped over the years would provide some semblace of enlightenment...alas no...same methodologies just different delivery canisters.

    sigh

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 09-22-2016 at 07:13 AM.
    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act. Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Do not try to bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you will see this is not the spoon that bends. It is only yourself.

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyMike View Post
    The point I believe that the OP is making is there is a juxtaposition between our military being banned from using a substance on foreign soil in war; yet our law enforcement can use it domestically.
    A quirky but irrelevant point once we realize what the Geneva Convention is and isn't.

    If I'm not mistaken, signatories to the Geneva Convention--including the US Government--are also banned from using hollow point ammunition in war. Yet how many here do not consider it a perfectly appropriate choice for self defense use including by both private citizens and police officers? Over-penetration can be a real concern in a self-defense situation, but apparently isn't in a military situation?

    And remember, what goes into a treaty is often not the product of hard science or even sound thinking nearly so much as of all kinds of negotiations and maneuvering for advantage one way or another. There is a rumor, probably apocryphal, of the German's wanting to add bagpipes to the list of weapons banned by the Geneva Convention.

    In other words, what is banned or not doesn't always reflect what is or isn't actually cruel or inhumane. Fragmentation grenades, napalm, and thermonuclear weapons are all permissible, but a hollow point bullet is not. It isn't logical. It is just what got negotiated among many different nations with differing agendas, social/moral mores, and values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    SNIP Over-penetration can be a real concern in a self-defense situation, but apparently isn't in a military situation?
    Uh, no. Not at the time the convention banned dum-dum bullets and so forth. On the battlefields of WWI and WWII, if you perforated your target, there were just more bad guys beyond him.

    Of course, those were the days when a .30-06 ball round was likely to perforate. Those cartridges were designed for the long distances possible on European battlefields. Not like the little 5.56 NATO used today.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Odd, no one has posted why tear gas is not allowed to be used in combat ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Odd, no one has posted why tear gas is not allowed to be used in combat ...
    Reference was made in post #7 of this thread.

    The generalities of military vs law enforcement are defined following in layman's terms:
    https://www.quora.com/Why-is-tear-ga...e-on-civilians
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Uh, no. Not at the time the convention banned dum-dum bullets and so forth. On the battlefields of WWI and WWII, if you perforated your target, there were just more bad guys beyond him.
    I guess someone missed my sarcasm. Obviously during WW I over-penetration was not a concern on the battle field. Obviously, today, as the military so often engages a small number of insurgents or terrorists within a much larger group of innocent civilians, over-penetration is a concern.

    Dum dums were banned. But tumbling .223 designed with the specific hope to wound rather than kill, thus removing someone from combat and tying up resources to transport and care for him are not banned.

    Which brings us back to the crux of my post which someone seemed to miss in an effort to try to find some non-material error in the post:

    What is or isn't banned in the Geneva Convention has a lot less to do with what is logically "humane" than it does with what happened to be negotiated at various times and the relative strength of the parties negotiating.

    So to compare what the Geneva Convention does or doesn't permit to what is or isn't permitted in civilian police work is foolish. It may make for a nice anti-police sound bite to the ignorant, emotional, or un-informed. But it is really not relevant.

    More importantly than any lack of logic on what the Convention bans or permits, is the fundamental difference between warfare and police work. The Geneva Convention requires recognizable uniforms be worn. It requires an officer corp that directs the actions of enlisted members. It doesn't require due process before shooting an enemy soldier dead on sight. There is no requirement to provide a trial to hold an enemy soldier when captured.

    Warfare is fundamentally different than police work. It is the reason we get rightly concerned when our police agencies and officers get "militarized." To quote Limbaugh, militaries are intended to kill people and break things. Police, OTOH, are supposed to keep the peace (peace officers), investigate crimes, make arrests, and bring suspects to the courts to be tried.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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