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Thread: Butler County metroparks - No OC allowed per park rules

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    Butler County metroparks - No OC allowed per park rules

    Butler County metroparks does not allow OC per park rules. They apparently allow (per the rules...I know 9.68 trumps) concealed carry of handgun, but again not OC of handgun or rifle. After performing a general internet search I found a post from 2007 from this site (appeared dead and not much said) and a one from 2012 from another Ohio CCW site with no follow-up (except posted email response below). Due to the age and the response provided, it should be revisited not because those using this site (as many of us may know the law on OC), but rather help fellow gun carriers. Many are from out of state that visit these parks and end up leaving their weapon in their hotel, which may leave them defenseless. Our great 9.68 trumps, but many don't even know about it or just don't care. In this case the directors of the board seem to just not care as they were informed about it and responded.

    Per a posted email, one director (Jonathan R. Granville, Executive Director MetroParks of Butler County) reportedly had this to say:

    "We appreciate your comments in regard to the open carry provisions of state law and the apparent conflict with the language of MetroParks Rules and Regulations. You are correct that state law always trumps local ordinances whenever there is a conflict. Recent court cases from across the state support your contention regarding open carry rights regardless of the possession of a concealed carry permit.

    Our Park Rules and Regulations are due for an up-date to eliminate such conflicts, address present park system needs and increase clarity. Locally, you may be interested to know, our Ranger staff have never issued a citation based on the specific section of our Rules and Regulations which is the subject of your email and, under present circumstances, our officers will not do so.

    However, your communication is very timely. We are in the process of rebuilding our Ranger Dept. and a rewrite of its public safety operating policies and existing Park Rules and Rules will take place in the coming months.

    Thank you for taking the time to alert us to the potential conflict for had we been unaware the rights of responsible gun owners might have abridged."


    Well, with that said back in 2012, we are now toward the end of 2016 and the rules appear to remain unchanged http://www.butlercountymetroparks.or...ents/rules.pdf

    Does anyone within this forum possibly know any of these people involved in the Butler County metroparks so that a fix can actually be made or maybe a better way to move forward?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
    --snipped--

    Does anyone within this forum possibly know any of these people involved in the Butler County metroparks so that a fix can actually be made or maybe a better way to move forward?
    It would seem logical to first contact them and see where they now intend to go and when - politely of course. Thanks for volunteering.

    Absenting satisfactory results, you might well consider a Writ of Mandamus compelling them to do their duty in accordance with state law.
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2731
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 09-25-2016 at 03:49 PM.
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    I'll look into this Monday. I just had Miami Township parks in Clermont County change there rules.

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    Here is the rule:
    1545.09 5b
    No person, except a Park Ranger, another law enforcement officer, a person within a designated hunting area, a person within a Board designated target range, or a person specifically authorized in writing by the Executive Director or his or her designee shall carry or possess a firearm of any description, air rifle, slingshot, bow, crossbow, rocket, missile throwing device, or hunting knife within a Park unless said devise is a handgun and said person possess a valid Ohio Concealed Carry Permit.
    This is contrary to Ohio law.

    I have the contact info and will be talking to them Monday.

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    Sounds like you're going to use the phone or computer to contact them, color of law. That's kind of a shame, they may play nice and won't get to meet you in person. Their loss.

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    I just spoke with Sergeant James. He is going to have Chief Dan Bower call me this afternoon. I informed him that their park rules are in violation of Ohio law. He was quite aware their rules are in violation. He informed me that they were working on it. I started laughing and informed him I've heard that story before. I told him I need times and dates as to when this will be fixed.

    I will update later today after they call, hopefully....

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    CoL, an extraordinary gentleman...

    ipse
    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act. Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Do not try to bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you will see this is not the spoon that bends. It is only yourself.

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    CoL, an extraordinary gentleman...

    ipse
    Now for my next magic trick!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    I just spoke with Sergeant James. He is going to have Chief Dan Bower call me this afternoon. I informed him that their park rules are in violation of Ohio law. He was quite aware their rules are in violation. He informed me that they were working on it. I started laughing and informed him I've heard that story before. I told him I need times and dates as to when this will be fixed.

    I will update later today after they call, hopefully....
    Well, no call from chief Dan Bower.

    Jonathan R. Granville, Executive Director of the MetroParks in Butler County OH., said, back on April 28, 2012, that the Park Rules and Regulations were due for an up-date to eliminate such conflicts. He also said they are in the process of a rewrite of existing Park Rules and it will take place in the coming months.

    Coming months???? We are now at coming years.

    You heard the phrase Lie'n Ted, well I guess we have a Lie'n Jonathan.

    I will be on the phone tomorrow.

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    Well, called again and left message. No return call. If I don't get a call tomorrow I will be shocking their conscience.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Well, called again and left message. No return call. If I don't get a call tomorrow I will be shocking their conscience.
    Increase the voltage and amp it up.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Increase the voltage and amp it up.
    electric chair has been declared cruel and unusual punishment...

    ipse
    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act. Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Do not try to bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you will see this is not the spoon that bends. It is only yourself.

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    electric chair has been declared cruel and unusual punishment...

    ipse
    That is why a salt water soaked sponge is placed at the pinnacle = improves conductivity.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    That is why a salt water soaked sponge is placed at the pinnacle = improves conductivity.
    ya know i always spelled 'that word' differently then that...

    ipse
    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act. Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Do not try to bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you will see this is not the spoon that bends. It is only yourself.

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    I sent the below email this morning.


    To: Chief Dan Bower and Jonathan Granville
    Ref: Park Rules


    On Monday morning (September 26, 2016) I spoke with Sergeant James about the park rules being in violation of state law relating to firearms. Sergeant James said that he would have the chief call me that afternoon. I received no such call. I called Tuesday morning (September 27, 2016) and I left a voice message with Jonathan Granville. I have not received a return call from either.

    One of the park rules that is in violation of state law (ORC § 9.68) and the Ohio Supreme Court (Ohioans for Concealed Carry, Inc. v. Clyde, 120 Ohio St.3d 96, 2008-Ohio-4605) is:

    “1545.09 5b No person, except a Park Ranger, another law enforcement officer, a person within a designated hunting area, a person within a Board designated target range, or a person specifically authorized in writing by the Executive Director or his or her designee shall carry or possess a firearm of any description, air rifle, slingshot, bow, crossbow, rocket, missile throwing device, or hunting knife within a Park unless said
    devise is a handgun and said person possess a valid Ohio Concealed Carry Permit. (Emphasis added)

    The above rule was Adopted: May 13, 2008, but on September 18,2008 the Ohio Supreme Court found such local laws or rules in violation of state law. Sergeant James acknowledged the park rules are in violation of state law, but informed me the rules are under review.

    However, in an April 2012 email Mr. Granville stated:

    “We appreciate your comments in regard to the open carry provisions of state law and the apparent conflict with the language of MetroParks Rules and Regulations. You are correct that state law always trumps local ordinances whenever there is a conflict. Recent court cases from across the state support your contention regarding open carry rights regardless of the possession of a concealed carry permit.

    Our Park Rules and Regulations are due for an update to eliminate such conflicts, address present park system needs and
    increase clarity. Locally, you may be interested to know, our Ranger staff have never issued a citation based on the specific section of our Rules and Regulations which is the subject of your email and, under present circumstances, our officers will not do so.

    However, your communication is very timely. We are in the process of rebuilding our Ranger Dept. and a rewrite of its public safety operating policies and existing Park Rules and Rules will take place in the coming months.

    Thank you for taking the time to alert us to the potential conflict for had we been unaware the rights of responsible gun owners might have abridged.”

    Being in the process of rewriting the rules and regulations 4 1/2 years later is clearly unacceptable.

    The rules and regulations require your immediate attention. And it should be noted that ORC § 9.68 does provide a remedy.

    A prompt reply as to the time and date these rules will be amended would be appreciated.

    Color Of Law

    CC: Edward L. Dwyer
    Cynamon Trokhan
    Gregory T. Amend

    P/S – Any posted signs in the parks that are in conflict with state law need to also be addressed.


    As you may notice I CC the park board.

    Lets see if I get a reply setting a time and date for amending the rules.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 09-28-2016 at 08:56 PM. Reason: rule #19

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    File a no contact order with them noting that any contact is prohibited from any person in their agency against you and failure to comply will result in immediate arrest.

    Then carry and see what happens.
    Do not take any postings to be the opinion of the poster .. poster may be posting opinions of others and not necessarily himself ... carry on

    "Filing a notice of trespass with your local, county, state authorities , to keep all town employees off your land, would cut down on the government from interfering or harassing you, at least put you in a little bit stronger legal position" .. chk you local laws (disclaimer)

    If a posting looks like its funny - its meant to be so-

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    File a no contact order with them noting that any contact is prohibited from any person in their agency against you and failure to comply will result in immediate arrest.

    Then carry and see what happens.

    Now right there is some great advice! Why didn't you think of that, COL. You guys have been going at this all wrong. The reason that this has gone on so long without a resolution is now obvious. Davidmcbeth has not been involved in the process up until now. Now that he is on the hunt, a resolution is at hand. COL, get out of the way and let an expert at this problem. Everybody else is just a amateur in comparison to the great davidmcbeth.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Now right there is some great advice! Why didn't you think of that, COL. You guys have been going at this all wrong. The reason that this has gone on so long without a resolution is now obvious. Davidmcbeth has not been involved in the process up until now. Now that he is on the hunt, a resolution is at hand. COL, get out of the way and let an expert at this problem. Everybody else is just a amateur in comparison to the great davidmcbeth.
    You know, I'm wondering who is more powerful - mcbeth or the Great and Powerful Oz? It could be close call.

    I may have to take off the "ignore" function on the only person currently in that status. On the other hand... maybe not. I've got some deep thinking to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    You know, I'm wondering who is more powerful - mcbeth or the Great and Powerful Oz? It could be close call.

    I may have to take off the "ignore" function on the only person currently in that status. On the other hand... maybe not. I've got some deep thinking to do.
    Oz is fictional ... I'm mythical ... slight but important difference.

    No resolution because you have not created a risk for the opposing party when you are in the right.
    Do not take any postings to be the opinion of the poster .. poster may be posting opinions of others and not necessarily himself ... carry on

    "Filing a notice of trespass with your local, county, state authorities , to keep all town employees off your land, would cut down on the government from interfering or harassing you, at least put you in a little bit stronger legal position" .. chk you local laws (disclaimer)

    If a posting looks like its funny - its meant to be so-

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Oz is fictional ... I'm mythical ... slight but important difference.

    No resolution because you have not created a risk for the opposing party when you are in the right.

    alas david, it has been shown 'Q' is far more powerfull, than either tha Great OZ or your mythical self.
    (caveat: weeping angels were not included in Blaise's equation used to determine most powerful)

    sorry...

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 09-29-2016 at 06:56 AM.
    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act. Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Do not try to bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you will see this is not the spoon that bends. It is only yourself.

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    You know, I'm wondering who is more powerful - mcbeth or the Great and Powerful Oz? It could be close call.
    Unpleasant memes hide powerful truths.

    Dorothy pulled back the curtain of ignorance to kiss green Oscar Zoroaster Phadrig Isaac Norman Henkle Emmannuel Ambroise Diggs, A.K.A. Oz PINHEAD the Great and Terrible, who turned into the green frog Prince Pepe. "Feels good man." Praise Kek.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 09-29-2016 at 08:21 AM.
    Hail TRUMP Victory. Hail TRUMP Sieg! Hail TRUMP Siegreich!

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    Y'all are forgetting my personal favorite, The Great Gazoo.

  23. #23
    Regular Member davidmcbeth's Avatar
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    Alas, all recommendations followed so far = no positive result

    Just trying to offer ideas.

    People here hate ideas I guess.

    Not providing legal advice, just providing my experience in dealing successfully with the .govs.

    There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

    Carry on !
    Do not take any postings to be the opinion of the poster .. poster may be posting opinions of others and not necessarily himself ... carry on

    "Filing a notice of trespass with your local, county, state authorities , to keep all town employees off your land, would cut down on the government from interfering or harassing you, at least put you in a little bit stronger legal position" .. chk you local laws (disclaimer)

    If a posting looks like its funny - its meant to be so-

  24. #24
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    I received this at 12:11 P.M. The way this reads we are in for another 4 1/2 years.

    Dear Color of Law,

    I was forwarded your email below for response.

    First, I would like to thank you for reaching out to MetroParks with your continued concern regarding the apparent conflict of language between MetroParks Rules and Regulations relative to the open carry provisions and the language of state law. Also, thank you for giving MetroParks the opportunity to respond to your follow-up.

    Secondly, I apologize that Chief Bower and Mr. Granville were otherwise committed and not available to return your call to date. While I am by no means the subject matter expert on this topic, I wanted to be sure that you knew that your concerns were not being ignored and that we had received your communication.

    While I understand your frustration relative to the amount of time it has taken, I am aware that a rewrite of MetroParks public safety operating policies and park rules is still underway. Additionally, I can assure you that any revisions made to our current policies and procedures will of course be in compliance with state law. Relative to any park signage, there is not any MetroParks signage that is currently in conflict with state law, that we are aware of; however, all signage will be reviewed for compliance with any updated rules and regulations as warranted. I apologize that I do not currently know the exact date and time in which MetroParks public safety operating policies and park rules and regulations will be complete, but have forwarded your communication to those responsible for this effort.

    I know that this answer may not be precisely what you were hoping to hear, but I did want to be sure that you knew MetroParks felt that it was important to acknowledge your communication and respond.

    Please feel free to reach out with any further questions that you might have for me. I will be out of the office until Monday, Oct. 3, 2016 and will have limited access to emails.

    Respectfully,

    Kelly J. Barkley
    Sr. Manager of Community Relations
    MetroParks of Butler County
    (O) 513.867.5835 (F) 513.867.5954
    kbarkley@yourmetroparks.net

  25. #25
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    Then at 6:08 P.M. I received this. I will be replying.


    Dear Color of Law:

    Although it was our intent to review and up-date our complete MetroParks Rules and Regulations at one time that process has taken far too long. We will remove section 1545.09 5b from the Rules and Regulations posted on-line as soon as possible and follow it up with official action of the Board of Park Commissioners at its October meeting to officially amend that section removing the phrases emphasized in the text shown below. A record of this action will be available on-line for your review.

    “1545.09 5b No person, except a Park Ranger, another law enforcement officer, a person within a designated hunting area, a person within a Board designated target range, or a person specifically authorized in writing by the Executive Director or his or her designee shall carry or possess a firearm of any description, air rifle, slingshot, bow, crossbow, rocket, missile throwing device, or hunting knife within a Park unless said devise is a handgun and said person possess a valid Ohio Concealed Carry Permit.

    Since the Ohio Revised Code was amended impacting this park rule no one has ever been cited by any our law enforcement officers for violating 1545.09 5b in respect to the carrying of firearms. As to your other point, I am aware of no signage in the MetroParks that conflicts with the Ohio Revised Code as presently enacted in regard to the legal carrying firearms. But in the course of a review if we discover any they will be removed and/or alter so as to be responsive to current State law.

    Thank you for bring this matter to my attention. I share your frustration that this issue has not yet been dealt with.

    Jonathan R. Granville
    Executive Director
    MetroParks of Butler County
    2051 Timberman Road
    Hamilton, OH 45013

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