Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38

Thread: ND at gun show in Sandy

  1. #1
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,339

    ND at gun show in Sandy

    KSL news reported an ND at the gun show held in Sandy on Saturday.

    Fair use excerpt:

    The buyer was interested in a Colt .45 handgun, Carriger said. The seller had all of his weapons zip tied and the potential buyer asked him to cut the zip tie so he could further examine the gun.

    "He manipulated the slide, not realizing there was a magazine in the gun. After manipulating the slide, he did notice the magazine and hit the release and took it out, unknowing that he racked a round into the chamber. He then pointed the gun down at the floor and pulled the trigger," Carriger said.

    One shot fired, striking the concrete floor.

    Concrete bits from the floor hit two teenage boys who apparently did not require medical attention.



    No charges are expected in this case. But the seller and buyer should both be banned by the operator of the gun show from all future events, IMO.

    Charles
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-01-2016 at 10:21 PM. Reason: Fair use exerpt/quote (rule #11 is the posting os a short part of an article
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  2. #2
    Regular Member davidmcbeth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,647
    Buyer did good ... pointing it where people are not.

    Seller forgot to unload it looks like.

    No harm, no foul...life goes on.

    Continuing carry !
    Do not take any postings to be the opinion of the poster .. poster may be posting opinions of others and not necessarily himself ... carry on

    "Filing a notice of trespass with your local, county, state authorities , to keep all town employees off your land, would cut down on the government from interfering or harassing you, at least put you in a little bit stronger legal position" .. chk you local laws (disclaimer)

    If a posting looks like its funny - its meant to be so-

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,545
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    ...Seller should never have consented to cut off the zip tie; buyer should not have asked. Buyer should have been certain the gun was clear before handling. ...

    ... But the seller and buyer should both be banned by the operator of the gun show from all future events, IMO.
    These are my only disagreements. Zip-ties are for convenience, not for true safety. If a serious buyer wants to check it out without a zip-tie, he should be able to. It affects feel and function. It obviously also does not guarantee the firearm is not loaded. Makes me wonder through what portion of the gun was this zip-tie. I assumed a zip-tied gun is supposed to have the zip-tie going through a partially open action.

    Seller bears the ultimate responsibility in this negligent discharge. It is unfathomable that he did not know the firearm was loaded, and that he allowed it to be so on the table, including a gun that was zip-tied. He is expected to know all the safety rules. The buyer may have been truly ignorant of safety rules, as this is common in a country that refuses to allow basic firearms safety training in practically all public schools. One of these days an enterprising attorney is going to start filing class action lawsuits where he can show schools have specifically refused this training to people who grew up to have such accidents.

    I can see banning the seller from returning, but I'm willing to determine if the buyer is now educated, and I would be comfortable thinking he'd be among the least likely people on the planet to experience such a negligence in the future.
    Last edited by MAC702; 09-26-2016 at 04:54 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  4. #4
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,339
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    These are my only disagreements. Zip-ties are for convenience, not for true safety. If a serious buyer wants to check it out without a zip-tie, he should be able to. It affects feel and function. It obviously also does not guarantee the firearm is not loaded. Makes me wonder through what portion of the gun was this zip-tie. I assumed a zip-tied gun is supposed to have the zip-tie going through a partially open action.

    Seller bears the ultimate responsibility in this negligent discharge. It is unfathomable that he did not know the firearm was loaded, and that he allowed it to be so on the table, including a gun that was zip-tied. He is expected to know all the safety rules. The buyer may have been truly ignorant of safety rules...
    From the sound of it, the zip tie must have been going through the barrel and chamber, rather than down the magazine well.

    I will disagree with your on the seller bearing responsibility for the ND. The gun was not defective. It worked perfectly. The buyer racked the slide and pulled the trigger. If he doesn't know basic safety, he shouldn't handle a gun. Anyone handling a gun has the responsibility to do so safely. That includes verify the firearm is cleared before handing it as though it were unloaded.

    If an adult hands a gun to a child, impaired adult, or mental defect, then the functioning adult bears responsibility. If a mature, mentally competent adult picks up a gun (or gets behind the wheel of a car) and causes injury or property damage because of his own negligence, that is on him. Especially if he has represented himself as being competent.

    Seller made a huge mistake having ammo near, much less in the firearm being shown and offered for sale. But it was the buyer--a mature adult--who failed to clear the gun and then pulled the trigger. I don't know exactly how statute handles this kind of case. But in my mind, responsibility for the ND should lie with the guy who pulled the trigger.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  5. #5
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    11,729
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    ...

    Seller made a huge mistake having ammo near, much less in the firearm being shown and offered for sale. But it was the buyer--a mature adult--who failed to clear the gun and then pulled the trigger. I don't know exactly how statute handles this kind of case. But in my mind, responsibility for the ND should lie with the guy who pulled the trigger.

    Charles
    +1
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  6. #6
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    5,714
    forgive me...but let me understand something...

    the UT gun show(s) allow the firearms on the table to have LOADED magazines IN them? really!!

    this isn't ammo near...this is bloody insanity.

    i would be trully embarrassed to even bring up this subject but then to initially pooh paw the incident to an isolated incident is tragic...

    ipse
    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act. Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Do not try to bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you will see this is not the spoon that bends. It is only yourself.

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  7. #7
    Regular Member davidmcbeth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,647
    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    forgive me...but let me understand something...

    the UT gun show(s) allow the firearms on the table to have LOADED magazines IN them? really!!

    this isn't ammo near...this is bloody insanity.

    i would be trully embarrassed to even bring up this subject but then to initially pooh paw the incident to an isolated incident is tragic...

    ipse
    Isolated incident .... this one actually is a very rare occurance.

    I don't see why folks are freaking out ... nobody was injured.
    Do not take any postings to be the opinion of the poster .. poster may be posting opinions of others and not necessarily himself ... carry on

    "Filing a notice of trespass with your local, county, state authorities , to keep all town employees off your land, would cut down on the government from interfering or harassing you, at least put you in a little bit stronger legal position" .. chk you local laws (disclaimer)

    If a posting looks like its funny - its meant to be so-

  8. #8
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
    Posts
    3,702
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    From the sound of it, the zip tie must have been going through the barrel and chamber, rather than down the magazine well.

    I will disagree with your on the seller bearing responsibility for the ND. The gun was not defective. It worked perfectly. The buyer racked the slide and pulled the trigger. If he doesn't know basic safety, he shouldn't handle a gun. Anyone handling a gun has the responsibility to do so safely. That includes verify the firearm is cleared before handing it as though it were unloaded.

    If an adult hands a gun to a child, impaired adult, or mental defect, then the functioning adult bears responsibility. If a mature, mentally competent adult picks up a gun (or gets behind the wheel of a car) and causes injury or property damage because of his own negligence, that is on him. Especially if he has represented himself as being competent.

    Seller made a huge mistake having ammo near, much less in the firearm being shown and offered for sale. But it was the buyer--a mature adult--who failed to clear the gun and then pulled the trigger. I don't know exactly how statute handles this kind of case. But in my mind, responsibility for the ND should lie with the guy who pulled the trigger.

    Charles
    The biggest question I have on this is who was it that inserted a loaded mag into a gun offered for sale on a table inside the gun show. This assumes the ziptie was in place before the mag was inserted and if the mag was in place when it was ziptied who didn't look into the chamber well enough to see the round sitting at the top of the mag waiting to be stripped off and into the chamber?

    You don't need to know what kind of device or tool was used to send this
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  9. #9
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,339
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    The biggest question I have on this is who was it that inserted a loaded mag into a gun offered for sale on a table inside the gun show. This assumes the ziptie was in place before the mag was inserted and if the mag was in place when it was ziptied who didn't look into the chamber well enough to see the round sitting at the top of the mag waiting to be stripped off and into the chamber?
    Exactly. At least several layers of failure on this one. Which is why such incidents are so rare; it actually does require multiple levels of failure of both the standard safety rules as well as the extra rules that most gun shows put in place, before such an ND can happen.

    And maybe I'm just paranoid, but I will not put it past the leftist gun grabbers to eventually slip into gun shows and load up a display gun hoping that someone will have an ND so as to build support to shut down shows. Those who will spike trees with ceramic tree spikes so as to avoid detection by metal detectors hoping to destroy the saw blade in the mill, knowing that when such blades come apart they are likely to injure nearby workers, will not have any moral qualms about sacrificing a few "gun nuts" on the receiving end of an ND for the greater good of shutting down gun shows. Ditto the kind of people who cut brake lines on heavy equipment. Lack of brakes gets people killed.

    Not only does everyone handling a gun have a responsibility to personally clear the firearm, but any seller who lets a someone handle a firearm, should also clear the firearm before handing the person the gun, and after the gun is returned to him. Indeed, the cautious vendor would not permit customers to just pick up guns. He would keep his display guns under glass in such a way that he has to hand the gun a customer each time someone wants to handle it.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  10. #10
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,339

    Update with more info

    One of the regulars over on Utah Concealed Carry . Org claims to have been present at the gun show when this happened.

    Another recgular corrected me in that there have been about twice to three times as many shows as I thought (about 5 or 6 a year it seems). All total, the members recall about 3 NDs at gun shows over the last 8 years or so.

    The fellow who was present was within 50 feet away. He says the buyer inserted a loaded mag and racked the slide after the zip tie was cut. Followed by the ND. The witness reports that for cutting the zip tie (I also wonder about having a loaded mag anywhere near a gun being shown) the seller had to pack up immediately and leave the show and has been banned from the show for life by the company that runs the show. He writes that the buyer has also been banned for life from entry to shows run by this company.

    In the same post he relates being near an ND at a gun show at the Davis Conference Center when a dealer objected to using zip ties because his gun was unloaded and then proceeded to "prove" it by shooting a hole through a table and into the floor. That seller was immediately cited and then banned for life. Sadly, the gun show was told they were no longer welcome to use that venue in the future.

    His post can be read at the link above, about 5 posts down on the first page of the thread.

    One ND can shut down a gun show. It isn't right. Perfection is a standard not imposed on any other activity or group. But them's the political realities we face.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 09-27-2016 at 06:17 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  11. #11
    Regular Member davidmcbeth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,647
    What was the seller cited for ? Sounds like he did nothing legally wrong. What an idiot buyer huh?

    Maybe he wanted to rack it it see if the gun was prone to accidental discharge? Test complete.
    Do not take any postings to be the opinion of the poster .. poster may be posting opinions of others and not necessarily himself ... carry on

    "Filing a notice of trespass with your local, county, state authorities , to keep all town employees off your land, would cut down on the government from interfering or harassing you, at least put you in a little bit stronger legal position" .. chk you local laws (disclaimer)

    If a posting looks like its funny - its meant to be so-

  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    36,357
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    What was the seller cited for ? Sounds like he did nothing legally wrong. What an idiot buyer huh?

    Maybe he wanted to rack it it see if the gun was prone to accidental discharge? Test complete.
    Cited? Where do you see he was charged with a crime?

    He was at a private, by contract/ticketed venue. They can make the rules.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  13. #13
    Regular Member davidmcbeth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,647
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Cited? Where do you see he was charged with a crime?

    He was at a private, by contract/ticketed venue. They can make the rules.
    That was my query Grape ... I did not see anything either .. so what was he "cited" was the query.

    We may never know.
    Do not take any postings to be the opinion of the poster .. poster may be posting opinions of others and not necessarily himself ... carry on

    "Filing a notice of trespass with your local, county, state authorities , to keep all town employees off your land, would cut down on the government from interfering or harassing you, at least put you in a little bit stronger legal position" .. chk you local laws (disclaimer)

    If a posting looks like its funny - its meant to be so-

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,545
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    ...But it was the buyer--a mature adult--who failed to clear the gun and then pulled the trigger. I don't know exactly how statute handles this kind of case. But in my mind, responsibility for the ND should lie with the guy who pulled the trigger.
    Allow me to fictionalize an anecdote to illustrate my point with something unrelated to firearms, where our expertise may give us bias.

    I've seen people fly remote-controlled aircraft. It looks cool. I want to get in to that. So I go to a "model airplane show" where there are hundreds of vendors selling model airplanes, accessories, and of course, beef jerky. I eventually see a model plane on a table with others that catches my eye. "I'd like to see that one," I tell the man on the other side of the table. He's wearing a T-shirt with an "I Fly or Die" anti-government slogan. He's cool, and our conversation quickly convinces me he's experienced in this field. He tells me that the model I'm looking at is a good one, with a very smooth throttle response. I don't know what that means yet, but the control on the table next to it has a lever labeled "throttle." So I push it to see for myself.

    Next thing I know, the damn airplane takes off and injures an bystander. People start shouting at me. You see, I didn't know there was a universal model airplane safety rule that says you NEVER touch a throttle lever without the airplane on the field and ready for takeoff. It doesn't matter that it's in a static display and you have every reason to trust the seller that it isn't turned on and charged. Sure, the vendor took some heat and got kicked out, but I'm still trying to figure out how any of this was my fault. All the model airplane experts are blaming me for the injury.

    You don't know what you don't know. The vendor was NEGLIGENT. The potential buyer may have been just ignorant. There is a huge difference.
    Last edited by MAC702; 10-01-2016 at 01:20 PM. Reason: spelling
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  15. #15
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    5,714
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Allow me to fictionalize an anecdote to illustrate my point with something unrelated to firearms, where our expertise may give us bias.

    I've seen people fly remote-controlled aircraft. It looks cool. I want to get in to that. So I go to a "model airplane show" where there are hundreds of vendors selling model airplanes, accessories, and of course, beef jerky. I eventually see a model plane on a table with others that catches my eye. "I'd like to see that one," I tell the man on the other side of the table. He's wearing a T-shirt with an "I Fly or Die" anti-government slogan. He's cool, and our conversation quickly convinces me he's experienced in this field. He tells me that the model I'm looking at is a good one, with a very smooth throttle response. I don't know what that means yet, but the control on the table next to it has a lever labeled "throttle." So I push it to see for myself.

    Next thing I know, the damn airplane takes off and injures an bystander. People start shouting at me. You see, I didn't know there was a universal model airplane safety rule that says you NEVER touch a throttle lever without the airplane on the field and ready for takeoff. It doesn't matter that it's in a static display and you have every reason to trust the seller that it isn't turned on and charged. Sure, the vendor took some heat and got kicked out, but I'm still trying to figure out how any of this was my fault. All the model airplane experts are blaming me for the injury.

    You don't know what you don't know. The vendor was NEGLIGENT. The potential buyer may have been just ignorant. There is a huge difference.
    excellent analogy Mac...

    ipse
    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act. Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Do not try to bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you will see this is not the spoon that bends. It is only yourself.

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  16. #16
    Regular Member Have Gun - Will Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Kenosha County, Wisconsin
    Posts
    338
    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    excellent analogy Mac...

    ipse
    Agreed, that was very well said. Kinda puts the trees into perspective and reveals the forest!
    “There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other.” - John Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Experience? Experience means political success, which means (today) Democrat or Republican. And it is precisely these professional politicians who have become corrupt and unrepresentative of the American people.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Have Gun - Will Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Kenosha County, Wisconsin
    Posts
    338
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    One of the regulars over on Utah Concealed Carry . Org claims to have been present at the gun show when this happened.

    <snip>

    The fellow who was present was within 50 feet away. He says the buyer inserted a loaded mag and racked the slide after the zip tie was cut. Followed by the ND. The witness reports that for cutting the zip tie (I also wonder about having a loaded mag anywhere near a gun being shown) the seller had to pack up immediately and leave the show and has been banned from the show for life by the company that runs the show. He writes that the buyer has also been banned for life from entry to shows run by this company.
    Sure... good luck with that! What are they going to do, check the ID of everyone entering the show and compare them against a list of banned people? Riiiiight... (BTW, that's a rhetorical question - not aimed at you, Charles.)

    I mean, sure, someone could recognize him and deny him admission - this year... but memories fade over time. In 5 years he could be back and no one would know the difference.

    One ND can shut down a gun show. It isn't right. Perfection is a standard not imposed on any other activity or group. But them's the political realities we face.

    Charles
    +1 You got that right...
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-01-2016 at 10:15 PM. Reason: Rule #19 in quote
    “There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other.” - John Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Experience? Experience means political success, which means (today) Democrat or Republican. And it is precisely these professional politicians who have become corrupt and unrepresentative of the American people.

  18. #18
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,339
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Allow me to fictionalize an anecdote to illustrate my point with something unrelated to firearms, where our expertise may give us bias.

    I've seen people fly remote-controlled aircraft. It looks cool. I want to get in to that.
    ...
    You don't know what you don't know. The vendor was NEGLIGENT. The potential buyer may have been just ignorant. There is a huge difference.
    If you insert a battery into the RC plane, cut the tether, turn on the power, and then engage the throttle, you are responsible for the results.

    The buyer asked for the zip tie to be cut, inserted a full mag, racked the slide, then pulled the trigger. That goes beyond ignorantly pushing one button.

    The zip tie should NOT have been cut. Loaded mag should not have been available. Those are on the seller.

    But the buyer was also grossly negligent. Every mature, functioning adult in this nation knows guns pose certain dangers. If you don't know what you are doing, don't handle one. If you do know, don't be a moron.

    No criminal charges as no serious injuries or property damage and Sandy PD didn't see a need to go after some BS illegal discharge in city charge.

    But being banned from the show for both is appropriate.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 10-02-2016 at 11:54 AM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,545
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    ...The buyer ... inserted a full mag, racked the slide, then pulled the trigger. That goes beyond ignorantly pushing one button. ...
    Agreed. My initial argument and your initial objection were before this was claimed.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  20. #20
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    5,714
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    KSL news reported an ND at the gun show held in Sandy on Saturday.

    Fair use excerpt:

    The buyer was interested in a Colt .45 handgun, Carriger said. The seller had all of his weapons zip tied and the potential buyer asked him to cut the zip tie so he could further examine the gun.

    "He manipulated the slide, not realizing there was a magazine in the gun. After manipulating the slide, he did notice the magazine and hit the release and took it out, unknowing that he racked a round into the chamber. He then pointed the gun down at the floor and pulled the trigger," Carriger said.

    One shot fired, striking the concrete floor.

    Concrete bits from the floor hit two teenage boys who apparently did not require medical attention.



    No charges are expected in this case. But the seller and buyer should both be banned by the operator of the gun show from all future events, IMO.

    Charles
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    If you insert a battery into the RC plane, cut the tether, turn on the power, and then engage the throttle, you are responsible for the results.

    The buyer asked for the zip tie to be cut, inserted a full mag, racked the slide, then pulled the trigger. That goes beyond ignorantly pushing one button.

    The zip tie should have been cut. Loaded mag should not have been available. Those are on the seller.

    But the buyer was also grossly negligent. Every mature, functioning adult in this nation knows guns pose certain dangers. If you don't know what you are doing, don't handle one. If you do know, don't be a moron.

    No criminal charges as no serious injuries or property damage and Sandy PD didn't see a need to go after some BS illegal discharge in city charge.

    But being banned from the show for both is appropriate.

    Charles
    so mate, since your story has changed from your inital post of an apparent unintentional act by the buyer to a premeditated one by said buyer of purposely inserting a loaded mag into the firearm?

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 10-01-2016 at 11:45 PM.
    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act. Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Do not try to bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you will see this is not the spoon that bends. It is only yourself.

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  21. #21
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    5,714
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Agreed. My initial argument and your initial objection were before this was claimed.
    mac the story changed from buyer unintentional to buyer purposely put a load mag into the firearm...

    just saying...

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 10-01-2016 at 11:47 PM.
    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act. Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Do not try to bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you will see this is not the spoon that bends. It is only yourself.

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  22. #22
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,339
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Agreed. My initial argument and your initial objection were before this was claimed.
    Yes. And the only new info is that the buyer inserted the loaded mag. The initi report was that he racked the slide, then dropped the magazine and pulled the trigger.

    While slightlyess egregious than inserting the mag himself, racking the slide and dropping the mag before plong the trigger indicates more than just pushing a single button.

    Again, unlike an RC that might be ignorantly assumed to be a harmless toy, every mentally competent adult in this nation knows firearms pose a real risk. Handling one without training is, itself negligent.

    Rmember, we all support the right of idiot buyer to buy a gun and ammo without any required training or background check. When he gets home, and starts playing with his new toy before getting any training and has an ND, that is on him alone. Not the FFL, not the clerk at Walmart, not his neighbor who suggested everyone should own a gun.

    I'm among the first to point out here that we should not eat our own over an ND. I stand by that and am glad there are no criminal charges in this case.

    But I also believe we need to be sure to lay accountability appropriately. When a 14 year old woth no record of mental illness or violence picks up a gun and goes on a killing spree, it isn't the fault of the parents for not keeping the gun in a safe, inside a vault, inside a locked room. Fifteen year olds know murder is wrong.

    Forty something year old men know guns are dangerous and should not be handled without proper training. Those who have had training and know how to handle a gun know full well not to rack a slide and pull a trigger.

    Seller messed up.

    So to did the buyer.

    Neither one gets a pass from me. But one of them actually pulled the trigger.

    The witness info more fully condemns the buyer. But he was plenty culpable even on initial reports.

    Best regards.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    36,357
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    --snipped-- Those who have had training and know how to handle a gun know full well not to rack a slide and pull a trigger.
    Glock SOP. There are more 'must do' procedures, but still..........
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,339
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Glock SOP. There are more 'must do' procedures, but still..........
    Yup. Anyone who knows how to disassemble a Glock knows to check, double check, and check again that the firearm is un loaded and to only pull the trigger when pointed in a safe location. A concrete floor at a crowded gun show is not a sage location and especially not at a low angle.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  25. #25
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    11,729
    Why does a seller have ammo available to be loaded in the first place.

    Ban the seller and cite the buyer.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •