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Thread: Why you shouldn’t talk to the police, You Have The Right to Remain Innocent book

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    Why you shouldn’t talk to the police, You Have The Right to Remain Innocent book

    Last edited by Nightmare; 09-30-2016 at 12:53 PM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Well, he also says in the video that keeping silent can be used against you too !

    So what to do, what to do?

    Why you file a notice of no contact to stop these "consensual encounters" all together.

    Then when a cop says "Hey, can we talk?" Your response is not "No." or some other retort but "Why are you violating my order of no contact? Give me your name, address, and birthday." And let the fun begin.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    interestingly, if you were on my ignore list i would have missed this helpful tidbit...

    just saying!

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    His closing statements.

    • You Must Explicitly Invoke Your Constitutional Rights
    • You Must Not Tell a Lie
    • Don’t Plead the Fifth
    • PLEAD THE SIXTH, “I want a lawyer!”


    It's a fast read without the endnotes, about 170 pages.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Your poor judgement, your loss, not mine.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    you do know his 2012 youtube video is out there : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

    knew his name sounded familiar...

    ipse

    added: nightmare quote...Your poor judgement, your loss, not mine. unquote.

    perhaps you are right...but i would miss the forum's mime in action
    Last edited by solus; 09-30-2016 at 04:34 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Just for general information, James Duane was also president of the FIJA (the Fully Informed Jurors Association).

    The FIJA website has some of his commentary. Wow!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    • You Must Explicitly Invoke Your Constitutional Rights
    • You Must Not Tell a Lie
    • Don’t Plead the Fifth
    • PLEAD THE SIXTH, “I want a lawyer!”


    It's a fast read without the endnotes, about 170 pages.
    The I want a lawyer is still the gold std .. likely because judges are lawyers !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Just for general information, James Duane was also president of the FIJA (the Fully Informed Jurors Association).

    The FIJA website has some of his commentary. Wow!
    http://www.fija.org/docs/JG_Jurors_Handbook.pdf
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Well, he also says in the video that keeping silent can be used against you too !

    So what to do, what to do?

    Why you file a notice of no contact to stop these "consensual encounters" all together.

    Then when a cop says "Hey, can we talk?" Your response is not "No." or some other retort but "Why are you violating my order of no contact? Give me your name, address, and birthday." And let the fun begin.
    Not to contradict. Just elaborating.

    If you, dear reader*, don't have a no-contact order on file with your local court, I urge you to consider a flat declaration when approached by police: "No, offense officer, I know you're just doing your job; but, I do not consent to an encounter with you."

    Right there you eliminate all doubt about whether the encounter is consensual or a detention. No court has to sift indicators. Nobody has to later ask, "Well, did the officer use a commanding tone? Was his hand near his weapon? Did his partner assume a bladed-stance?" No judge has to weigh whether a reasonable person would have felt free to disregard the officer and walk away.

    You see, this idea started several years ago when I realized the whole reason there are reams and reams of court cases assessing whether a police encounter was consensual or a detention was because none of the citizens involved ever declared that they refused consent to the police encounter. So, the courts had to sort out whether the police encounter that ultimately resulted in an arrest and conviction started out consensually or not.

    Well, plain and simple, too many judges will side with cops if they can find a millimeter of wiggle room to squeeze through. Why leave it up to a judge to decide whether it was a consensual encounter? Why give a judge that opportunity (to come down on the side of the police)? I can just tell you from reading I-don't-know how many appeals court cases that leaving it up to a judge is a bad idea--judges way too often side with police.

    So, don't give a judge or a cop the opportunity to play fast and loose with whether you consented to the encounter. Make it totally certain the encounter is not consensual. "Officer, no offense. I know you're just doing your job, but I do not consent to an encounter with you."

    From another angle, you've just returned the cop's serve. And--he has to play that ball. He doesn't get to confuse things, for example, by using a commanding tone to utter, "Sir, I would like to speak to you for a moment." You see how that works? He gets to later tell a judge he "requested" to talk to you (while carefully omitting to tell the judge that he used a commanding tone.) Refusing consent to the encounter from the very beginning cuts through all that. If you expressly tell him you refuse consent to the encounter, you remove all doubt that it is a consensual encounter. And, the only way he can legally continue the encounter is if he has genuine RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion that a crime is, was, or is about to be committed)**. So, when you refuse consent to the encounter, you've taken the initiative and legally forced him to play the ball. He has to play the ball you sent back across the net. And, he has to play it legally.

    SAMPLE CONVERSATION

    Cop: Hey, can we talk to you, Mr. Citizen OCer?

    Citizen: No offense officer, I know you're just doing your job; but, I do not consent to an encounter with you.

    Cop: We're just wondering why you're carrying that gun.

    Citizen: Why am I being detained?

    Cop: Nobody said you're being detained.

    Citizen: I said it. I made it plain this is not a consensual encounter.

    Cop: Look, we have to check you out. A little cooperation would be nice.

    Citizen: Oh, officer, I will cooperate with your investigation to the full extent required by law. I wish to be released from this detention right this very instant.

    Cop: Why are you being such a jerk?

    Citizen: Officer, I do not consent to this encounter; nor, will I answer questions without an attorney. I wish to be released right this instant. This is not a consensual encounter.

    Cop: We have to check you out.

    Citizen: I have made it very clear this is not a consensual encounter. And, yet, here you are forcing the encounter on me. When, will I be released from this detention?

    -------------------------------------

    Get the idea? Just refuse consent to the encounter. If the cop says even one more thing, or asks even one more question, then take the initiative away from him and assume the mental posture that you are being detained. It cannot possibly be a consensual encounter if you refused consent to the encounter. That means it must be a detention. And, the cop had better have genuine RAS for that.


    *Regarding the address "gentle reader", it is not mine. I got it from author Isaac Asimov. I liked his short stories in my youth.

    **See Terry v Ohio for the beginnings of reasonable suspicion. Also, the context here is criminal suspicion. Community care-taking, for example, using force to prevent a suicidal person from jumping off a bridge is a different subject.
    Last edited by Citizen; 09-30-2016 at 10:07 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Citizen's advice ^ ^ ^ is solid, well thought out.

    Practice it, rehearse it, commit it to memory.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Citizen's advice ^ ^ ^ is solid, well thought out.

    Practice it, rehearse it, commit it to memory.
    Its what I do when approached by LEOs that I have not yet served a no contact order upon (not that nice but along the same lines...except I escalate it to demand that they either detain me or arrest me or go away).

    Then I file a no contact order afterwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Its what I do when approached by LEOs that I have not yet served a no contact order upon (not that nice but along the same lines...except I escalate it to demand that they either detain me or arrest me or go away).

    Then I file a no contact order afterwards.
    Bullspit.

    You've never done any such thing.

    Video to the contrary from a single incident welcome.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Bullspit.

    You've never done any such thing.

    Video to the contrary from a single incident welcome.

    Charles
    I generally do not take videos ... alas, there was no videos of the American Revolution ... so you think that this never happened...I guess.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Bullspit.

    You've never done any such thing.

    Video to the contrary from a single incident welcome.

    Charles
    mate, are you asking a member for a cite or objective evidence?

    wait, this is the same mate who chastised the membership stating asking for a cite was strictly, unequivocally mandated by forum rules only on points of law?

    is this the same mate who gets their knickers in a significant twist when they are asked to provide some, any actually, substantiation for the continuous flow of misinformation he spews...

    isn't that precious...mate is trying to emulate the rest of the forum...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Bullspit.

    You've never done any such thing.

    Video to the contrary from a single incident welcome.

    Charles
    Oh, and I forgot ... I have a civil suit pending over my no contact order being violated. Sweeet.

    Been in my pile of lawsuits...sorry to mention before, I forgot as I was writing a new lawsuit (mailed out yesterday).
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 10-01-2016 at 12:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Oh, and I forgot ... I have a civil suit pending over my no contact order being violated. Sweeet. Been in my pile of lawsuits...sorry to mention before, I forgot as I was writing a new lawsuit (mailed out yesterday).
    Trust and verify has failed. You are a liar.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Trust and verify has failed. You are a liar.
    You need to fix your "trust and verify" ... it be broke.

    Here's bees a part of the complaint filed .. wherein I complain of the agency violating the no contact order...see attached portion of the complaint...which is on the public record of course...

    .govs who violate my no contact orders do so at their own peril.


    This complaint has a whole host of counts, including the violation of my no contact order as a cause of action.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Oh, and I forgot ... I have a civil suit pending over my no contact order being violated. Sweeet.

    Been in my pile of lawsuits...sorry to mention before, I forgot as I was writing a new lawsuit (mailed out yesterday).
    Not as a witness, but as a principal.

    Please provide links substantiating your claim to no contact order suits + a substantial number of lawsuits related to the subject.

    Cuteness, avoidance, misdirection eventually wear thin on OCDO and damage our credibility. I fear it has reached that point.

    Time is of the essence.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not as a witness, but as a principal.

    Please provide links substantiating your claim to no contact order suits + a substantial number of lawsuits related to the subject.

    Cuteness, avoidance, misdirection eventually wear thin on OCDO and damage our credibility. I fear it has reached that point.

    Time is of the essence.
    Are you demanding that I provide personal identifying information Grape?

    We discussed this before, yes?

    I have included a portion of a complaint (s) ....to provide the full complaint wherein also to comply with the site's non-identifying rules would require substantial re-writing of the complaints ... you going to pay me for all that time?

    You cannot expect me to upload all of my civil suits ... and with many there are no links to provide .. not all suits' pleadings are available on the web you understand.

    If you wish, you could send me Johns email account, he could sign a NDA, then I could send him the complaints and he can make the finding, as he would have to, that I am truthful.

    What you don't understand is that what you have just asked me to do would open me up to civil liability and destroy my immunity in respect to pending court case pleadings I have filed.

    Plaintiff's should not post links to cases that they want to maintain their immunity in respect to court filings. That's just how it is in my state or how I understand the law for my state.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    You need to fix your "trust and verify" ... it be broke.

    Here's bees a part of the complaint filed .. wherein I complain of the agency violating the no contact order...see attached portion of the complaint...which is on the public record of course...

    .govs who violate my no contact orders do so at their own peril.


    This complaint has a whole host of counts, including the violation of my no contact order as a cause of action.
    A non-substantiated, out of context snippet hardly confirms anything.

    The person enters the agency building, then initiates action under no contact - really?

    Bottom line - you stirred this pot. You make statments that you will not or cannot confirm.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-01-2016 at 02:23 PM. Reason: fixed
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    A non-substantiated, out of context snippet hardly confirms anything.

    The person enters the agency building, then initiates action under no contact - really?
    Grape, its really the best I can do .... w/o opening myself up to liability IMO. Hope you can understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Grape, its really the best I can do .... w/o opening myself up to liability IMO. Hope you can understand.
    Then you need to stop making such claims as it damages your credibility substantually and has an impact on OCDO.

    Is there not a neutral source/link for no-contact orders? A Cliff Notes/how to source including the results of law suits?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-01-2016 at 02:39 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Then you need to stop making such claims as it damages your credibility substantually and has an impact on OCDO.

    Is there not a neutral source/link for no-contact orders? A Cliff Notes/how to source including the results of law suits?
    People v. Hollman, 79 NY 2d 181 - NY: Court of Appeals 1992

    You may start here ... and follow the cases cited in it too.

    The law is clear: non consensual contacts w/o RAS or PC violate the 4th amendment.

    You tended to agree in a thread that telling a policeman that you do not consent to an encounter was a good idea ... why would you say that putting that in writing is a bad idea? After all, I think we all agree that documenting things is a good thing.

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    ... has nothing to do with your lies about your activities. Put up or shut up and go away.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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