• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

No first amendment rights for YOU, white guy

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
https://www.thefire.org/student-arr...versity-police-for-civil-rights-intimidation/

Student Arrested By East Tennessee State University Police for ‘Civil Rights Intimidation’


Myself? I would never find anyone guilty of a "hate crime" .... its PC BS

+1 at the underlying premise: the jury has the power to judge the law as well as the facts.

Just today I was re-reading a passage in my book The Origins of the Fifth Amendment: The Right Against Self-incrimination by Leonard Levy (The book won the Pulitzer Prize in History). Levy relates the history of a fella name John Lilburne in 1600's England.

What does the right against self-incrimination have to do with the power of a jury to judge the law as well as the facts? No much. The relationship is less between the two rights than the guy who put the capstone on the right against self-incrimination. But, this post is about the jury power to judge the law as well as the facts. (Is the law fair? Is it being correctly applied? Did the king (or Congress) just invent it to protect power or cater to lobbyists?)

Lilburne was a massive thorn in Oliver Cromwell's side. Lilburne argued up one side and down the other in favor of English liberties. Upon discovering Cromwell was just as bad as the former king, Lilburne targeted Cromwell and his Parliament, skewering them and their policies with pamphlets printed by secret presses.

In his last of at least three trials for vocal opposition to Parliament and Cromwell--in support of ancient English liberties--Lilburne asked his jury to judge the law as well as the facts. Despite the entire country knowing he was guilty, the jury found Lilburne not guilty. The jury judged the law contrary to justice, and decide he wasn't guilty. By about 1670 the right of the jury to judge the law as well as the facts was enshrined in English law.

So, what is the connection between Lilburne, the right of the jury to judge law, and the right against self-incrimination? Nothing. It is just that Lilburne argued both. And, won on both! Shortly after Lilburne another case came up. The court expressly said a fellow cannot be forced to incriminate himself. That is why Lilburne provided the capstone on the right against self-incrimination--it was his trials and his arguments that finally shut up the government. But, at that last trial he also invited the jury to weigh the law as well as the facts. Lilburne did both.

I remember years ago a poster--a very infrequent poster--accusing me of undermining law for advocating the right of a jury to judge the rightness of the law as well as the facts. He asserted I supported the complete deteriotion of society and the undermining of the rule of law. I was a bit slow. I didn't have a good come back. Today is a little different. "Oh, you insist the jury use the law to judge a defendant? Well, guess what buster, the right of the jury to judge the law as well as the fact is part of the law."[SUP]1[/SUP]


1. See the trial of William Penn and William Mead, two Quakers in Anglican England tried for preaching Quakerism about 1670. Their jury refused to convict them despite their being obviously guilty of breaking (an unjust) law. The judges imprisoned the jury! One juror, Bushell, appealed his imprisonment (Bushell's case). The higher court ruled the jury could not be punished for its judgement. That is the case that finalized the right of the jury to judge the law as well as the facts. Do look it up. It is too important not to read it.
 
Last edited:

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
--snipped-- Rational Belief: Structure, Grounds, and Intellectual Virtue by Robert Audi.
"This book is a wide-ranging treatment of central topics in epistemology. It provides conceptions of belief and knowledge, offers a theory of how they are grounded in our experience and in the social context of testimony, and connects them with the will and with action, moral responsibility, and intellectual virtue."
http://www.worldcat.org/title/ratio...rounds-and-intellectual-virtue/oclc/902853066

This reading list will keep someone busy through the cold winter nights:
https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/17865.Robert_Audi

Epistemology explained:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology/
 
Last edited:

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Be wary of goodreads[sic]. Since AmaXon bought it, it has become little more than an User Contributed Advertising site with no curating.

--snipped--
Still it provides a look at the volume of tomes produced from the author's prolific pen.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
+1 at the underlying premise: the jury has the power to judge the law as well as the facts.

Just today I was re-reading a passage in my book The Origins of the Fifth Amendment: The Right Against Self-incrimination by Leonard Levy (The book won the Pulitzer Prize in History). Levy relates the history of a fella name John Lilburne in 1600's England.

What does the right against self-incrimination have to do with the power of a jury to judge the law as well as the facts? No much. The relationship is less between the two rights than the guy who put the capstone on the right against self-incrimination. But, this post is about the jury power to judge the law as well as the facts. (Is the law fair? Is it being correctly applied? Did the king (or Congress) just invent it to protect power or cater to lobbyists?)

Lilburne was a massive thorn in Oliver Cromwell's side. Lilburne argued up one side and down the other in favor of English liberties. Upon discovering Cromwell was just as bad as the former king, Lilburne targeted Cromwell and his Parliament, skewering them and their policies with pamphlets printed by secret presses.
































In his last of at least three trials for vocal opposition to Parliament and Cromwell--in support of ancient English liberties--Lilburne asked his jury to judge the law as well as the facts. Despite the entire country knowing he was guilty, the jury found Lilburne not guilty. The jury judged the law contrary to justice, and decide he wasn't guilty. By about 1670 the right of the jury to judge the law as well as the facts was enshrined in English law.

So, what is the connection between Lilburne, the right of the jury to judge law, and the right against self-incrimination? Nothing. It is just that Lilburne argued both. And, won on both! Shortly after Lilburne another case came up. The court expressly said a fellow cannot be forced to incriminate himself. That is why Lilburne provided the capstone on the right against self-incrimination--it was his trials and his arguments that finally shut up the government. But, at that last trial he also invited the jury to weigh the law as well as the facts. Lilburne did both.

I remember years ago a poster--a very infrequent poster--accusing me of undermining law for advocating the right of a jury to judge the rightness of the law as well as the facts. He asserted I supported the complete deteriotion of society and the undermining of the rule of law. I was a bit slow. I didn't have a good come back. Today is a little different. "Oh, you insist the jury use the law to judge a defendant? Well, guess what buster, the right of the jury to judge the law as well as the fact is part of the law."[SUP]1[/SUP]


1. See the trial of William Penn and William Mead, two Quakers in Anglican England tried for preaching Quakerism about 1670. Their jury refused to convict them despite their being obviously guilty of breaking (an unjust) law. The judges imprisoned the jury! One juror, Bushell, appealed his imprisonment (Bushell's case). The higher court ruled the jury could not be punished for its judgement. That is the case that finalized the right of the jury to judge the law as well as the facts. Do look it up. It is too important not to read it.

Freeborn John as he was referenced was arguably the first English libertarian.. He also refused to testify against himself before the notorious "star chamber" therefore I would indeed credit him with influencing the founders in drafting the 5th, he was also cited in Miranda v Arizona.. A true patriot!

In 21st century American jurisprudence, the concept of a jury trial is slowly going away and being replaced with "plea bargaining". The fear of lengthly jail sentence upon conviction can at times make even the innocent take a "plea".

I would also recommend for reading. " Commentaries on The Law of England" and" The Rights of Persons" by Sir William Blackstone, followed up with " Commentaries on The Laws of the United States" by Professor James Kent.

My .02
Regards
CCJ
 
Top