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Thread: State Police Illegally Ties Drivers License To Carry Permits Violating the Law

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    State Police Illegally Ties Drivers License To Carry Permits Violating the Law

    "What good are laws when even the law-keepers refuse to obey them?"

    "That is the question facing the law abiding citizens of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania as the State Police are actively breaking the law by having a persons LTCF disclosed to them whenever they pull over a driver. You see, a recent update to the NCIC was done that now couples the information so when they run your drivers license they will also be informed whether you have a license to carry a firearm."

    "Only one problem…such a move is completely illegal."

    http://bulletsfirst.net/2016/10/03/s...ating-the-law/
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-11-2016 at 08:02 AM. Reason: formatting
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Will the sovereign claim immunity for its organ of enforcement? I'll bet so.
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    "Scofflaw" comes to mind.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Obviously they're afraid of grannies and gramps with PERMITS.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    nc citizen's chp are numbered with the individual's DL so when the nice LEs run the plate they immediately see the registered owner has a permit...if you fail to disclose...ticket.

    ipse
    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act. Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Gentlemen - you are off-topic with the posts here on driving licenses, the right to drive, etc.

    Such content belongs in the Social Lounge.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Gentlemen - you are off-topic with the posts here on driving licenses, the right to drive, etc.

    Such content belongs in the Social Lounge.
    Than use all your authority and move the topic thereto, such valuable information should not be discarded because it is outside the box of conventional wisdom.

    Regards

    CCJ
    " What is done unto anyone may be done unto everyone" John Lilburne

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Gentlemen - you are off-topic with the posts here on driving licenses, the right to drive, etc.

    Such content belongs in the Social Lounge.
    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    Than use all your authority and move the topic thereto, such valuable information should not be discarded because it is outside the box of conventional wisdom.

    Regards

    CCJ
    That would not be consistent with the OP/topic of this thread.

    Could I create a new thread from the off topic replies? Sure, but I am here to help educate and condition people to making wise choices, not be their sitters. Likely that in most cases, I will continue offer guidance or delete off topic posts. You think your non OC/RKBA posts are worth discussing then make the trip to the Social Lounge.

    Please, return to the OP/topic of this thread. Deliberately ignoring that admonition will not qualify for a free lunch.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-11-2016 at 11:14 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    .. You seem to enjoy deleting information that you disagree thereof without consulting members involved in the discourse...
    I agree with grape on this one if you want to talk about drivers licenses start a thread in the lounge.

    Very simple really.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    To explain what should not have to be explained, if one keeps up to date with the Forum Rules:

    OCDO is private property and all are in effect guests here. The is no right to post as one chooses - instead there is the privilege of posting in accordance with the rules and called decisions which have the force of a rule.

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    While we prefer to moderate with a gloved hand (give suggestions and warnings), there are by necessity other means available.

    When someone attacks or disagrees publicly by posting, then I will make some effort to respond in kind. Logic would dictate that a request for interpretation be sent to me by PM rather than thread hijacking. I will be most willing to oblige such a query.

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    Last time - return to the premise and limits of the OP or receive presumed unwanted attention.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    nc citizen's chp are numbered with the individual's DL so when the nice LEs run the plate they immediately see the registered owner has a permit...if you fail to disclose...ticket.

    ipse
    Give me ONE instance of a citation of this (as stated). Not disclosing you have a CHP is not unlawful unless you are actually carrying a concealed handgun.

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    This is a Pennsylvania site, not a North Carolina site. We have LTCFs, not CHPs, and LTCFs are not tied to one's driver's license. Whether you have one or not, or are carrying or not, there is no obligation to respond either way if such action or activity is totally unrelated to the reason for the traffic stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
    This is a Pennsylvania site, not a North Carolina site. We have LTCFs, not CHPs, and LTCFs are not tied to one's driver's license. Whether you have one or not, or are carrying or not, there is no obligation to respond either way if such action or activity is totally unrelated to the reason for the traffic stop.
    Understood.

    So, are you saying that the source for Grapeshot's post is in error? I understand the "not tied to" phrase, but if the information is routinely supplied then it is essentially the same thing. Your response, or lack of one, to LEO questioning is not the point. The point is that your SP are violating state law.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
    This is a Pennsylvania site, not a North Carolina site. We have LTCFs, not CHPs, and LTCFs are not tied to one's driver's license. Whether you have one or not, or are carrying or not, there is no obligation to respond either way if such action or activity is totally unrelated to the reason for the traffic stop.

    1622 states in part, quote: "... upon lawful demand of nice police officer SHALL PRODUCE...for inspection. unquote.


    where do you read 'no obligation' in that statute let alone any definition regarding 'totally' unrelated...


    nice officer 'lawfully demands' and salivation begins...


    ipse


    forgive my oversight of posting in the PA thread...
    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act. Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Do not try to bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you will see this is not the spoon that bends. It is only yourself.

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    1622 states in part, quote: "... upon lawful demand of nice police officer SHALL PRODUCE...for inspection. unquote.
    Just because Officer Friendly asks, because the traffic stop is related to not coming to a Full Stop at a stop sign, doesn't mean his request is a Lawful Demand.

    Now, if he (or she) notices that you are carrying/transporting a firearm in or on your vehicle, then it would be a Lawful Demand.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    This whole thing of 'shall disclose' or 'disclose upon demand' is poorly understood and actually a set up.

    1. You do NOT talk about your firearm. The disclose part is about your PERMIT. I have rarely seen anyone acknowledge this INCLUDING police.

    2. If you are not carrying you are not required to SAY ANYTHING. But then you could be arrested, because it's a catch-22. In order to satisfy the demand you are basically required to self-non-incriminate and say "I am not carrying". But BY LAW you should not be required to say this.

    3. If a cop is savvy they can run up to your window, start talking and making demands not letting you talk and then immediately write a ticket for failing to disclose. (note I said 'can'). This has happen at least once in the news. Again, what is the point? Nobody seems to be able to say, except to generate revenue or create bad feelings among the very people LEOs should be keeping on their side.

    This is all designed to put a permit-carrying, background-vetted, law-abiding citizen in jeopardy.

    Note, there are one or two states which actually talk about disclosing about your carry piece, IF you have a firearm. ALL the rest only talk about the permit. Sadly there are probably only a handful of LEO who will admit to knowing this. Most know, I believe, but play dumb.

    Off-topic a bit:
    I might add ISTM it's the same deal with handicap permits. It's on your license. Any LEO that comes up to your car, if you forgot to put the hang tag can glance at your stats and see you have a permit. WHY make you display it? Is that so rednecks won't egg your car in the Walmart parking lot?
    Last edited by Maverick9; 10-12-2016 at 09:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    I might add ISTM it's the same deal with handicap permits. It's on your license. Any LEO that comes up to your car, if you forgot to put the hang tag can glance at your stats and see you have a permit. WHY make you display it? Is that so rednecks won't egg your car in the Walmart parking lot?
    Which license? Driver's license? Vehicle's license plate?

    Vehicle is registered to me. I do not have a handicap permit. My wife does. She has a license, but doesn't drive. LEO can look at my stats all he/she/it wants, but nothing will show up concerning the hang tag. I display it when transporting her to avoid an expensive ticket.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
    Which license? Driver's license? Vehicle's license plate?

    Vehicle is registered to me. I do not have a handicap permit. My wife does. She has a license, but doesn't drive. LEO can look at my stats all he/she/it wants, but nothing will show up concerning the hang tag. I display it when transporting her to avoid an expensive ticket.
    Special case. If you have a HC permit and are the driver the cops know it. So, yes in your special case you need to put up the tag and if your wife is not with you you may NOT park in such a space, tag in the car or not, because you need a wallet card (in Virginia).

    If your wife IS with you and you are seated in the car, or she is, you do not need the hang tag because the officer should contact you and she can then show him her wallet card.

    Not sure why you're splitting hairs over a very specific case that is probably pretty rare. Your wife can be on the car registration as an owner. It's a good idea so she can sell it if you become deceased.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
    Just because Officer Friendly asks, because the traffic stop is related to not coming to a Full Stop at a stop sign, doesn't mean his request is a Lawful Demand.

    Now, if he (or she) notices that you are carrying/transporting a firearm in or on your vehicle, then it would be a Lawful Demand.
    afternoon mr. S, do you have a firearm in the vehicle?

    sorry lawful demand just tendered to ya mr S.

    officer safety trumps your perception of request or their lawful demand...w/ or w/o the smile or gentle tone.

    ipse

    added..you are right mavrick on misunderstood...however the nice LEs use officer safety as their shield to rationalize a great many sins against citizens.
    Last edited by solus; 10-12-2016 at 11:51 PM.
    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act. Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Do not try to bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you will see this is not the spoon that bends. It is only yourself.

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    When you purchase your permission slip to drive, you give the state jurisdiction over yourself and your property. Surrending rights for a privilege. End of story.
    " What is done unto anyone may be done unto everyone" John Lilburne

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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    When you purchase your permission slip to drive, you give the state jurisdiction over yourself and your property. Surrending rights for a privilege. End of story.
    I would suggest that we rent the driving license and accept certain conditions for keeping it active during the limited term to which it applies.

    I say "rent" because it is for a term defined in a set number of years - not a lifetime permission slip. It has all of the terms of a contract: Offer, acceptance, consideration, date, signatures AND is voidable; therefore it is a contract to which you have agreed.

    Also IMHO, we will likely never see our legislators abolish the present system. Some here will rant, others will find major fault in a hit and run tactic. As for me, I have bigger fish to fry in areas more germane to this thread and OCDO generally where real change can be potentially accomplished.

    This thread is about PA driving licenses, carry permits, and cross referencing the information. It is NOT about the rights vs freedoms concept.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-13-2016 at 06:15 AM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Is there a more reliable source for the allegation(s) laid other than a blog?

    My limited intellect impacted my ability to google the PA code sited in the blog post.

    Perhaps a more creative mind can link to the actual PA code vs. a blog posting.

    http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...cons_index.cfm
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Is there a more reliable source for the allegation(s) laid other than a blog?

    My limited intellect impacted my ability to google the PA code sited in the blog post.

    Perhaps a more creative mind can link to the actual PA code vs. a blog posting.

    http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...cons_index.cfm
    Yes, (sort of) and the statute is cited and quoted:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comment...ivers_license/
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-18-2016 at 05:08 AM. Reason: fixed
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Yes, (sort of) and the statute is cited and quoted:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comment...ivers_license/
    Is it alleged that PASP is releasing the information to the public? A lawyer does not get to decide what "the public" means, a judge will need to decide. Charge/sue a PASP officer and let us all see what happens.
    I do not consider other non-LE emergency personnel (who likely have your medical data now) as "the public" nor do I consider a tow truck driver "the public" if he has been informed that LTCF data is confidential and not releasable to "the public."

    (i) Confidentiality.--All information provided by the potential purchaser, transferee or applicant, including, but not limited to, the potential purchaser, transferee or applicant's name or identity, furnished by a potential purchaser or transferee under this section or any applicant for a license to carry a firearm as provided by section 6109 shall be confidential and not subject to public disclosure. In addition to any other sanction or penalty imposed by this chapter, any person, licensed dealer, State or local governmental agency or department that violates this subsection shall be liable in civil damages in the amount of $1,000 per occurrence or three times the actual damages incurred as a result of the violation, whichever is greater, as well as reasonable attorney fees.
    If the PASP is violating the letter of the law then apply the applicable sanction. Will a PASP officer will be charged/sued?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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