New Member, Few Questions. Long Winded.

Let me start off by saying I'm very happy to have found this forum. I joined in effort to fully educate myself and anyone I meet on the subject of open carrying. That is to the best of my knowledge and in the most raw, unmolested form of the law. I feel like it's my duty to do so since most of what I hear from people in my family and friends is in my opinion hear say and not backed by a law. Not a good idea to go walking and driving around with a firearm based on hear say.

My name is Jared. I live in Columbiaville, MI and I am 24 years old. I've been around firearms my entire life. Life member of the NRA. Sadly, little knowledge of open carrying a firearm. I have read up on most of the stickies here and miscellaneous links on Google so I feel I'm probably a solid 7/10 as far as general knowledge of laws and procedures go. Now to the questions -

(Reference http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?113518-Open-Carry-without-a-CPL)

• Do I need an "excuse" or "reason" to transport my legally purchased and registered pistol in my vehicle (MCL 28.422)(MCL 750.227) ? Do I just say I'm going to or from the range every time I'm pulled over and they ask if I have any weapons and why ? Keep in mind my pistol is stored in a case with empty magazines underneath the passenger back seat of my full size Silverado. Ammo stored in the glove box in the box it came in.
• How about the same but open carrying the pistol ? (I know this is an odd question because its my RIGHT to do so) But I've heard from some sources that wouldn't knowingly steer me wrong that they heard from LEO's in their 60+ years that you must have a reason to be carrying the pistol. AKA have a hunting permit. I know ... Odd. (This is what I mean by hear say) Google has not been my friend in these two categories.
• I run my business out of a 6x10 ENCLOSED trailer. I plan on carrying every day while working. The only thing that worries me is: I'm legally carrying my firearm. I get into my trailer which I do quite often to mix paint and get warm in the winter. Am I then breaking the law by concealing the firearm in my trailer ? While still visible on my person, rear barn doors open on trailer.
• Can I keep a loaded magazine in the same case as the firearm ? Not in the magazine well but fully unloaded from the firearm itself. In its appropriate spot in the case. (MCL 750.231a)

Any help is appreciated and sorry for the long winded post. I'm typically short worded but I want to be absolutely sure I'm conveying my questions correctly.

By the way, currently carrying a Taurus G2C 9mm in all black with the standard 13 round clip in a paddle style holster.

Can help with fishing holes and autobody questions in return

First off, welcome to OCDO. Lots of Michiganders here, not that they post a lot. lol

This PDF: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf will provide you a lot of useful information. But to address your points:

1. No, you do not need an excuse to transport your pistol in your vehicle. The license described in 28.422 is the purchase permit you turned in to your local LE office, also known as registration. You may transport it for ANY lawful purpose. This includes self defense. However, you MUST adhere to 750.231a in that the pistol must be unloaded (magazine removed AND empty and chamber clear) in a case designed for firearms, and either in the trunk OR if a trunk is not available, not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle. That last part is where the legal gray area is.

2. Second verse, same as the first. You may open carry a pistol anywhere in public barring the exceptions listed in federal guidelines (within 1000 ft of a school property line) and those of MCL 28.425o. (see above link, it has a list on page 2)

3. This one is a little murky. It is MY OPINION (disclaimer: I am NOT a lawyer.) that a PARKED UNHOOKED trailer does not constitute a vehicle but a "place of business" under the 750.227(2) exceptions. You will, however, need permission (or rather, lack of objection) from the people whose properties you are working on. Bear in mind that private property laws trump your right to carry.

4. A flat and resounding NO. The magazine is considered a part of the pistol, and therefore must also be empty. Even if you were to keep the loaded magazine separate from the case containing the pistol itself (ie pistol in case in trunk and magazine in glove box) you would still be in violation of the law.

I suspect they made the laws this way to either A: make it too much of a hassle to carry or B: pay the money and get the license.

Again, welcome to OCDO!

Interesting take on the magazine question. Do you have a cite in MI law that states that?

DeSchaine said:

First off, welcome to OCDO. Lots of Michiganders here, not that they post a lot. lol

This PDF: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf will provide you a lot of useful information. But to address your points:

1. No, you do not need an excuse to transport your pistol in your vehicle. The license described in 28.422 is the purchase permit you turned in to your local LE office, also known as registration. You may transport it for ANY lawful purpose. This includes self defense. However, you MUST adhere to 750.231a in that the pistol must be unloaded (magazine removed AND empty and chamber clear) in a case designed for firearms, and either in the trunk OR if a trunk is not available, not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle. That last part is where the legal gray area is.

2. Second verse, same as the first. You may open carry a pistol anywhere in public barring the exceptions listed in federal guidelines (within 1000 ft of a school property line) and those of MCL 28.425o. (see above link, it has a list on page 2)

3. This one is a little murky. It is MY OPINION (disclaimer: I am NOT a lawyer.) that a PARKED UNHOOKED trailer does not constitute a vehicle but a "place of business" under the 750.227(2) exceptions. You will, however, need permission (or rather, lack of objection) from the people whose properties you are working on. Bear in mind that private property laws trump your right to carry.

4. A flat and resounding NO. The magazine is considered a part of the pistol, and therefore must also be empty. Even if you were to keep the loaded magazine separate from the case containing the pistol itself (ie pistol in case in trunk and magazine in glove box) you would still be in violation of the law.

I suspect they made the laws this way to either A: make it too much of a hassle to carry or B: pay the money and get the license.

Again, welcome to OCDO!

Click to expand...

Appreciate the direct answers and information. I'm going to start on that PDF right now. I was just confused about the loaded magazine because in MCL 750.231a it reads as follows :

--

To ready your firearm for transportation here are the steps to follow:
Walk to the back of the vehicle with your firearms case

With both case and firearm completely outside of the vehicle find a spot to place your firearms case.

Unholster your pistol and remove the magazine and any rounds that might be chambered.

If you prefer you may place the round that was once chambered back into the magazine.

Place both the completely unloaded pistol and the (which is allowed to be loaded) magazine in your firearms case.

Place the firearm which is now located in your firearms case in the trunk of the vehicle and close the trunk.

You are ready to transport.

--

I didn't know if that was the writers take on it or if it was written in the law itself. Better to be safe than sorry anyways so I've been carrying as described in my original post. At any rate I'm sure you are more knowledgeable than myself about the matter. You made a good point about the trailer, I'm going to have to ask the right person for an answer to that. Although I'm sure it will be a grey area as well.

My next question would be about when you said: "Bear in mind that private property laws trump your right to carry." You are talking about whether or not the place I am at would allow me to carry on their property right ?

Thanks again for the information.

xd shooter said:

Interesting take on the magazine question. Do you have a cite in MI law that states that?

Click to expand...

That was cited off of MCL 750.231a, which is Michigan law. Again, not sure whether or not that was the writers interpretation of it or a set in stone thing.

DeSchaine said:

...2. Second verse, same as the first. You may open carry a pistol anywhere in public barring the exceptions listed in federal guidelines (within 1000 ft of a school property line) and those of MCL 28.425o. (see above link, it has a list on page 2)...!

Click to expand...

Are you saying that the 1,000 foot school rule applies to those with a MI CPL?

DeSchaine said:

First off, welcome to OCDO. Lots of Michiganders here, not that they post a lot. lol

This PDF: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf will provide you a lot of useful information. But to address your points:

1. No, you do not need an excuse to transport your pistol in your vehicle. The license described in 28.422 is the purchase permit you turned in to your local LE office, also known as registration. You may transport it for ANY lawful purpose. This includes self defense. However, you MUST adhere to 750.231a in that the pistol must be unloaded (magazine removed AND empty and chamber clear) in a case designed for firearms, and either in the trunk OR if a trunk is not available, not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle. That last part is where the legal gray area is.

-snip-
Again, welcome to OCDO!

Click to expand...

Although I am not an attorney I'd like to expand on DeShaine's advice:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ac...eg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-227

Section 750.227
THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
Sec. 227.
-snip-

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
-snip-

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(oi...g.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-750-231a

Section 750.231a
THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); "antique firearm" defined.Sec. 231a.
(1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:
-snip-
(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.
(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
-snip-

Again, I am not an attorney but those laws say to me that it is illegal to carry a pistol within the confines of a vehicle without a CPL. That means you must take the cased gun out of the vehicle while it is still in the case, take the gun out of the case, load then holster the gun making sure you and the gun stay outside the confines of the vehicle. And that procedure must be done in reverse before getting into your vehicle.

You cannot uncase and load, or unload and case, inside the trunk or inside the interior of the vehicle because if you are handling the gun within the confines of the vehicle then you are carrying the pistol inside the vehicle.

A hint for looking up Michigan's laws. Go to:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ahlaxnpdm1hxprxvht3ikgh3))/mileg.aspx?page=MCLBasicSearch

and enter your key words to find the actual laws.

DeSchaine said:

4. A flat and resounding NO. The magazine is considered a part of the pistol, and therefore must also be empty. Even if you were to keep the loaded magazine separate from the case containing the pistol itself (ie pistol in case in trunk and magazine in glove box) you would still be in violation of the law.

Click to expand...

This is incorrect. As long as the magazine is not inserted into the pistol, it may be loaded, even in the same case. It must only be empty if it is inserted while in transport mode. (Reminder, make sure you unchamber any round in the pistol, too).

griffin said:

This is incorrect. As long as the magazine is not inserted into the pistol, it may be loaded, even in the same case. It must only be empty if it is inserted while in transport mode. (Reminder, make sure you unchamber any round in the pistol, too).

Click to expand...

According to the Kalamazoo County prosecutors office, a recently retired KDPS officer and three local NRA certified CPL class instructors, it is correct. As it was explained to me, it has to do with the fact that the magazine is an integral part of any semi automatic handgun without which it cannot operate. I'm not saying it makes sense, but it WILL get a person charged.

BB62, I wrote my answers under an educated guess that the OP is not a holder of a MI issued CPL, and therefore subject to the federal 1000 ft restriction. Also, while MCL 750.234d provides a list of prohibited places for those that do not have a CPL, MCL 28.425o has a couple places that didn't make it to that list.

DeSchaine said:

According to the Kalamazoo County prosecutors office, a recently retired KDPS officer and three local NRA certified CPL class instructors, it is correct. As it was explained to me, it has to do with the fact that the magazine is an integral part of any semi automatic handgun without which it cannot operate. I'm not saying it makes sense, but it WILL get a person charged.

BB62, I wrote my answers under an educated guess that the OP is not a holder of a MI issued CPL, and therefore subject to the federal 1000 ft restriction. Also, while MCL 750.234d provides a list of prohibited places for those that do not have a CPL, MCL 28.425o has a couple places that didn't make it to that list.

Click to expand...

I originally wrote a long response to this but for some reason it didn't post. I'm too wore out tonight between work and doing my parents exterior drain tile to make that post again. I appreciate the answers very much. I will be on tomorrow to elaborate on a few things and ask another question.

Jared- said:

I originally wrote a long response to this but for some reason it didn't post. I'm too wore out tonight between work and doing my parents exterior drain tile to make that post again. I appreciate the answers very much. I will be on tomorrow to elaborate on a few things and ask another question.

Click to expand...

Newbie posts go into a Moderation que (to be reviewed) until approved. See it at #4 above.

That condition will cease after ten approved posts.

@OP

We wrote an Open Carry in Michigan Handbook which should answer a lot of questions and clear up a lot of confusion ahead of time.

http://freedomisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

Evil Creamsicle said:

@OP

We wrote an Open Carry in Michigan Handbook which should answer a lot of questions and clear up a lot of confusion ahead of time.

http://freedomisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

Click to expand...

This. If you can think of something involving OC legal issues in Michigan that it doesn't address complete with legal cites, please PM EC or myself and it will be edited to include it. We haven't heard of such as issue since it was released 6 years ago, but if it does we'll eagerly address the concern.

DeSchaine said:

According to the Kalamazoo County prosecutors office, a recently retired KDPS officer and three local NRA certified CPL class instructors, it is correct. As it was explained to me, it has to do with the fact that the magazine is an integral part of any semi automatic handgun without which it cannot operate. I'm not saying it makes sense, but it WILL get a person charged.

BB62, I wrote my answers under an educated guess that the OP is not a holder of a MI issued CPL, and therefore subject to the federal 1000 ft restriction. Also, while MCL 750.234d provides a list of prohibited places for those that do not have a CPL, MCL 28.425o has a couple places that didn't make it to that list.

Click to expand...

I have to disagree, by simply stating that a semi automatic firearm CAN fire a bullet without a magazine, while a magazine all by its lonesome, CANNOT. A loaded magazine is only dangerous if thrown with proper force.

You are free to disagree, and I do agree with your point of view that it is absurd. However, IF the situation described arises, the outcome will be an arrest and trial.

Just to clarify, and I did ask previously, you can provide no cite to this claim, that the magazine must be empty when carrying a pistol in the trunk and not having a CPL, correct?

I understand you agree that it's ridiculous, but that doesn't change that you're providing potentially misleading information based on sources that MANY here say should not be trusted.

I submit also the question, is it illegal to carry a fully loaded magazine, JUST a magazine, no pistol, open or concealed, anywhere?

xd shooter said:

Just to clarify, and I did ask previously, you can provide no cite to this claim, that the magazine must be empty when carrying a pistol in the trunk and not having a CPL, correct?

I understand you agree that it's ridiculous, but that doesn't change that you're providing potentially misleading information based on sources that MANY here say should not be trusted.

I submit also the question, is it illegal to carry a fully loaded magazine, JUST a magazine, no pistol, open or concealed, anywhere?

Click to expand...

There is NO law on loaded magazine carry outside of perhaps hunting regs and surely the feds can get away with come prohibitions such as in federal courts, federal buildings, military bases, airports, etc. There are also reservations which can make up whatever laws they want, and some do.

Under preemption the only places that could get away with an enforceable prohibition on loaded magazine carry besides again maybe hunting rules would be places authorized under state law to make their own rules, such as private property that could make it a matter of trespassing, as well as schools which can prohibit gun carry for students all they want, not just k-12 but also under the community colleges act they can do whatever the hell they want, the law really is extremely ambitious and can be read in the above linked book.

DeSchaine said:

According to the Kalamazoo County prosecutors office, a recently retired KDPS officer and three local NRA certified CPL class instructors, it is correct. As it was explained to me, it has to do with the fact that the magazine is an integral part of any semi automatic handgun without which it cannot operate. I'm not saying it makes sense, but it WILL get a person charged.

Click to expand...

If you can come up with a better way to cite phone calls and face to face conversations, I'm all ears. As for an actual law cite, no, such a definition does not exist in MI law. It is open to interpretation by individual jurisdictions many of which in MI will choose to arrest and charge. I can't find any case that has sought to test it, but by all means go ahead and be the first.

For clarity, just in case someone was on the fence about taking the 5 seconds needed to download the very much free book to read and understand the law in great detail, here is the table of contents and appendix index.

TABLE OF CONTENTS
FOREWORD 6
THANK YOU 9
THE FOUR RULES OF GUN SAFETY 10
CHAPTER 1: HISTORY OF MODERN OPEN CARRY IN
MICHIGAN 12
CHAPTER 2: YOUR RIGHTS UNDER STATE AND FEDERAL
LAW 15
CHAPTER 3: OPEN CARRY WITHOUT A CONCEALED
PISTOL LICENSE 19
CHAPTER 4: OPEN CARRY WITH A CONCEALED PISTOL
LICENSE 24
CHAPTER 5: NON-RESIDENT CARRY IN MICHIGAN 30
CHAPTER 6: WHAT ABOUT BRANDISHING, DISORDERLY
CONDUCT AND DISTURBING THE PEACE? 35
CHAPTER 7: CARRYING A QUALITY HANDGUN 37
CHAPTER 8: CARRYING LONG GUNS 45
CHAPTER 9: STATE PARKS, STATE LAND, NATIONAL
PARKS AND NATIONAL FORESTS 56
CHAPTER 10: OTHER WEAPONS 59
CHAPTER 11: WHY OPEN CARRY? 63
CHAPTER 12: HANDLING HOSTILE POLICE
INTERACTIONS WHILE OPENLY CARRYING 67
CHAPTER 13: LAW, CASE LAW AND AG OPINION GUIDE103

APPENDIX INDEX
***APPENDIX A: STATE LAWS***
-EXHIBIT 1 A, Preemption MCL 123.1102; see page
91.
-EXHIBIT 2 A Weapon definitions MCL 750.222;
see page 92.
-EXHIBIT 3 A Prohibited places to carry with no
CPL MCL 750.234d; see page 94.
- EXHIBIT 4 A No carry at K-12 school without
CPL MCL 750.237a; see page 96.
-EXHIBIT 5 A Registration process is “license to
carry”/ Can’t carry W/O resident license
MCL28.422; see page 99.
-EXHIBIT 6 A Act 75 of 2006
Amended MCL 28.432; see page 104
-EXHIBIT 7 A Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2)
MCL 750.231a; see page 106
-EXHIBIT 8 A No weapons in casinos
R 432.1212; see page 108
-EXHIBIT 9 A Community Colleges Act
MCL 389.125; see page 109
- EXHIBIT 10 A Concealed carry disclosure to
police when stopped
MCL28.425f; see page 110
-EXHIBIT 11 A Ban on transporting loaded
firearms other than pistols in vehicles
MCL 750.227c; see page 112
-EXHIBIT 12 A Disorderly persons law
MCL 750.167; see page 113
EXHIBIT 13 A How to transport non-pistols
186
MCL 750.227d; see page 114
-EXHIBIT 14 A Weapons ban
750.224; see page 115
-EXHIBIT 15 A Pistol Definitions
MCL 28.421; see page 135
-EXHIBIT 16 A Eavesdropping
750.539c; see page 117
-EXHIBIT 17 A Eavesdropping definitions
750.539a; see page 118
-EXHIBIT 18 A Michigan FOIA Law
Act 442 of 1976; see page 118
-EXHIBIT 19 A Concealed carry free zones
MCL 28.425o; see page 119
-EXHIBIT 20 A LEIN system access
MCL 28.214; see page 123
-EXHIBIT 21 A Carrying concealed weapons ban
MCL 750.227; see page 125
-EXHIBIT 22 A Sterile area of airports weapons ban
MCL 259.80f; see page 126
-EXHIBIT 23 A Game area carry rules
MCL 324.43510; see page 127
-EXHIBIT 24 A Brandishing
MCL 750.234e; see page 128
-EXHIBIT 25 A Carrying Concealed Weapons
MCL 750.227; see page 129
-EXHIBIT 26 A Pistol Definition
MCL 28.421 see page 150
***APPENDIX B: ATTORNEY GENERAL
OPINIONS***
-EXHIBIT 1 B Opinion No. 3158
Openly holstered pistol carry is legal, and not
187
concealed; see page 131
-EXHIBIT 2 B Opinion No. 7097
Licensed carry in “pistol free zones”; see page 124
-EXHIBIT 3 B Opinion No. 7101
Open carry not brandishing; see page 140
-EXHIBIT 4 B Opinion No. 6798
Out of state licenses and Michigan residents; see
page 144
***APPENDIX C: STATE LAWS ABOUT OTHER
WEAPONS***
-EXHIBIT 1 C Carrying with unlawful intent
MCL750.226; see page 150
-EXHIBIT 2 C Pocket knife opened by mechanical
device
MCL750.226a; see page 150
-EXHIBIT 3 C Daggers
MCL 750.222a; see page 150
-EXHIBIT 4 C Weapons found on pupil in K-12
school
MCL 380.1313; see page 151
***APPENDIX D: CASE LAW***
-EXHIBIT 1 D
MCRGO V Ferndale; see page 155
-EXHIBIT 2 D
Terry v Ohio; see page 155
-EXHIBIT 3 D
JL V Florida, SCOTUS 2000; see page 156
188
***APPENDIX E: FEDERAL LAWS***
EXHIBIT 1 E GFSZA
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 922 922;
see page 158
EXHIBIT 2 E CARRYING INTO NP AND NWLR
512 of P.L. 111-24; see page 160
EXHIBIT 3 E
Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242. Deprivation of
Rights Under Color of Law; see page 160
EXHIBIT 4 E Civil action for deprivation of rights
TITLE 42--Sec. 1983; see page 162

DeSchaine said:

If you can come up with a better way to cite phone calls and face to face conversations, I'm all ears. As for an actual law cite, no, such a definition does not exist in MI law. It is open to interpretation by individual jurisdictions many of which in MI will choose to arrest and charge. I can't find any case that has sought to test it, but by all means go ahead and be the first.

Click to expand...

What is open to interpretation? Michigan has preemption. If there are no magazine laws on the books the city or county cannot have a law on the books that is enforceable.