Heard a new one yesterday.

Since people at work somehow associate me with firearms, I get asked about firearms or firearm related laws.
Usually I will try to help but always encourage people to do their own research and if the question really concerns them that they can always retain a lawyer.
Yesterday a coworker came up to me and asked me if I had ever heard of excessive calibers.
Um' what?
He was told by a gun store clerk that some calibers are considered excessive in VA. Example, 9mm or .45 would be ok to shoot an intruder with but that .357 would be considered excessive and the victim may be charged.
I've heard stupid things but this one is pretty far up there.
Sad thing is, this place gives CC classes and I'm really hoping this gentleman is not part of the instruction.

The only thing I have ever remotely heard, which was said by a LEO, is that if you shot someone in a defensive act and did not use a "defensive round" I.E. hollow point, and there was collateral damage from the bullet over penetrating and striking someone else, you could be charged. Again, this came from a LEO, I have never looked up to see if there is anything on paper regarding it.

gcbailey said:

The only thing I have ever remotely heard, which was said by a LEO, is that if you shot someone in a defensive act and did not use a "defensive round" I.E. hollow point, and there was collateral damage from the bullet over penetrating and striking someone else, you could be charged. Again, this came from a LEO, I have never looked up to see if there is anything on paper regarding it.

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Where can you buy offensive rounds?

Is it okay to use defensive rounds offensively?

[emoji6]


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gcbailey said:

The only thing I have ever remotely heard, which was said by a LEO, is that if you shot someone in a defensive act and did not use a "defensive round" I.E. hollow point, and there was collateral damage from the bullet over penetrating and striking someone else, you could be charged. Again, this came from a LEO, I have never looked up to see if there is anything on paper regarding it.

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first, you heard it form the unreliable LE gossip grapevine.

second, unfortunately there are hundreds of citizens who are bogusly charged on an emotional whim at the scene of incident, but then had charges 'dropped' by the judicial system ~ this does not come cheap to the individual initally charged!

third, it is my understanding, again, my gossip is as valuable as the nice LEs, if you are charged & brought to trial, the use of handloaded ammo - aka hot loads COULD have a detriment to your defense.

ipse

Roverhound said:

Since people at work somehow associate me with firearms, I get asked about firearms or firearm related laws.
Usually I will try to help but always encourage people to do their own research and if the question really concerns them that they can always retain a lawyer.
Yesterday a coworker came up to me and asked me if I had ever heard of excessive calibers.
Um' what?
He was told by a gun store clerk that some calibers are considered excessive in VA. Example, 9mm or .45 would be ok to shoot an intruder with but that .357 would be considered excessive and the victim may be charged.
I've heard stupid things but this one is pretty far up there.
Sad thing is, this place gives CC classes and I'm really hoping this gentleman is not part of the instruction.

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Whenever you hear someone's opinion that does not pass the "sniff test," ask them to cite the statute that supports their statement.

I have heard those same rumors

For as long as I have been active in the Second Amendment community. I have never heard ANY hard evidence or read any recorded testimony to support it. Pure BILGE, to borrow from those of Naval inclination. I can imagine such coming from a case in New Jersey where they fear John Q Public having hollow points, but even there I have seen no real evidence.

solus said:

first, you heard it form the unreliable LE gossip grapevine.

--snipped--

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Excuse me but that is a private line.

Remember party lines? No, not Republican and Democratic.

I'm talking about when you picked up the phone, got an operator who rang a shared number.

Everyone on that line would listen into the conversation.

Wanna spread something fast? Start of with, "Now don't tell a soul....."

solus said:

first, you heard it form the unreliable LE gossip grapevine.

second, unfortunately there are hundreds of citizens who are bogusly charged on an emotional whim at the scene of incident, but then had charges 'dropped' by the judicial system ~ this does not come cheap to the individual initally charged!

third, it is my understanding, again, my gossip is as valuable as the nice LEs, if you are charged & brought to trial, the use of handloaded ammo - aka hot loads COULD have a detriment to your defense.

ipse

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I started and ended with my disclaimer regarding the information received and the source and regards as hearsay, you know the "assume" route. It did make me a little curious though as is there any credit to using ball ammo vs hollow point and the possibility of any charges being brought. I did an almighty google search on "being charged for not using hollow point rounds in self defense" and it came up with some interesting articles.

Now granted I didn't read through enough articles to see if any of them had legal references but they all basically state the same issues of using ball ammo.... over penetration and hitting what's beyond your intended target. Because of this I won't post specific links as some of them are just forum posts the same as this, which holds no weight. I do see the point of using the proper ammo and I do believe that any given lawyer can make the case if a person were to cause unintended damages due to not using "proper ammo" but I'm not a lawyer and do not know if there are any specifics in my state that states "you must use XXXX ammo in your pistol while carrying in public".....

there are a lot of card carrying citizens who believe it is a perfect world and if, heaven forbid, they need to utilize deadly force to protect themselves or loved ones and, after a reasonable short and fair investigation, the judicial system will exonerate them quickly and at minimal cost to the shooter.

there are other citizens who, for various reasons subscribe to urban myths, e.g., stopping power, cartridge type, SA diversions, ad nauseam, and regurgitate and push these myths when regaling hearing about someone who got convicted for a SD shooting incident. 'well shouldn't have used ball ammo' or 'shouldn't have used the Judge' or or or... sad state of affairs the conviction didn't have anything whatsoever to do with what is being gossiped about.

as you stated GC, you found, after a basic search, an abundance of these myths and as you mentioned they seem to lack the substance of objective evidence of fact except the author's 'expert' commentary of persuasion!

fact is, each SD shooting is different and the initial investigation is hodgepodge at best and even if the investigators feel the incident met the very exact letter of the law, i do not care who's, the DA has the power, if so inclined, to take an insignificant aspect of the situation, e.g., ammo used, caliber, shooter's training, etc., and blow it out of proportion enough to convince the grand jury to indict the shooter.

at this point, the card carrying citizen who, by the book, successfully defended themselves now has to defend themselves from the judicial process at a huge financial cost.

finally, you are correct GC to seek specifics what those statutes governing your carrying actually state...but this knowledge in and of itself will not allow you to the beat the ride or the judicial onslaught about to occur. there are a myriad of other situational circumstances that individual's should also consider...first being keep you mouth shut after an incident!!

party line is now modernized...

ipse

JamesCanby said:

Whenever you hear someone's opinion that does not pass the "sniff test," ask them to cite the statute that supports their statement.

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I do. This wasn't told to me but to a coworker.

Since I may have possibly got the topic slightly off track by talking about ammo vs. caliber. I personally prefer my Glock 29 and 20 (10mm) and there's an entire story that could be tied regarding too much or too little caliber back in the days of the "Miami shootout". So I guess the FBI in essence thought the 10mm was "overkill" and the .40 was created as a go between...???

gcbailey said:

Since I may have possibly got the topic slightly off track by talking about ammo vs. caliber. I personally prefer my Glock 29 and 20 (10mm) and there's an entire story that could be tied regarding too much or too little caliber back in the days of the "Miami shootout". So I guess the FBI in essence thought the 10mm was "overkill" and the .40 was created as a go between...???

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or the almighty politics amongst the manufacturers and decision makers

just saying

ipse

gcbailey said:

Since I may have possibly got the topic slightly off track by talking about ammo vs. caliber. I personally prefer my Glock 29 and 20 (10mm) and there's an entire story that could be tied regarding too much or too little caliber back in the days of the "Miami shootout". So I guess the FBI in essence thought the 10mm was "overkill" and the .40 was created as a go between...???

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While the 10mm didn't last long with the FBI, the .40 cal loading that replaced it had virtually identical ballistics.

Some excellent reading and videos on the subject in link following:
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/the-1986-fbi-gunfight-and-adoption-of-the-10mm-auto/

Grapeshot said:

While the 10mm didn't last long with the FBI, the .40 cal loading that replaced it had virtually identical ballistics.

Some excellent reading and videos on the subject in link following:
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/the-1986-fbi-gunfight-and-adoption-of-the-10mm-auto/

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Very interesting video. I have read some stuff about the snafu in the past but nothing to that detail.

Start your own damn 10mm thread.

Roverhound said:

Start your own damn 10mm thread.

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my, my, my...wee bit touchy aren't we?

ipse

So, is my Automag IV in .45 WinMag loaded with pulled .45 Black Talon projectiles too much then or should I stick with the 9mm WinMag in the Automag III?

Don't know if one needs the auto mag cartridges with black talons loaded in them.

But I do have a bunch of new in the box factory loaded Black talons in 45 and 357 that I picked up in a ammo deal.

Probably should just sell them and buy modern hollow points the don't have such a horrible reputation.

Roverhound said:

Start your own damn 10mm thread.

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solus said:

my, my, my...wee bit touchy aren't we?

ipse

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:lol:

Even when politly correcting, we should be polite and not resort to cursing.

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While staying on-topic is desirable, an occasional sojourn into related information is not forbidden. Subject to review.

Firearms Iinstuctor said:

Don't know if one needs the auto mag cartridges with black talons loaded in them.

But I do have a bunch of new in the box factory loaded Black talons in 45 and 357 that I picked up in a ammo deal.

Probably should just sell them and buy modern hollow points the don't have such a horrible reputation.

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Ya kinda have to "roll yer own" with .45 WinMag and it's not like they come in defensive rounds anyway. Also, Ya will find that I have just a bit of a sarcastic wit about me.