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Hearing Protection and Pay 4 Permits?

utbagpiper

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The Hearing Protection Act has been re-introduced into Congress. This bill will remove suppressors from the NFA list and instead treat them like long guns. It will provide a refund of the $200 tax to those who purchase a suppressor between Oct 22, 2015, and the date the new law takes effect.

H.R. 367, https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/367/text?r=21 is sponsored by Rep. Jeff Duncan of South Carolina. Bill text at the link.

The companion, S.59 by Idaho Senator Crapo, https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/59/text , does not have any text as of 1/22/17.


While this bill is not ideal in that suppressors should be treated like uncontrolled accessories (scopes, stocks, magazines, etc) rather than like long guns with serial numbers and 4473s, it strikes me as a great step in the right direction. Dropping the $200 "transfer tax" is small potatoes compared to not having to go through the BATFE for every transfer. Imagine getting a suppressor without having to provide photos, fingerprints, and whatnot to the BATFE. Imagine being able to let a friend or family member borrow a suppressor or suppressed firearm without having to add them to some ownership list. How long before we have a decent number of suppressors circulating around the private marketplace, effectively untraceable by the government?

Of course, that leads to the great question about Pay 4 Permits. Just as some permit instructors may oppose permit-free carry over fears of lost revenue, one may wonder how many NFA trusts will be set up once suppressors come off the NFA list. I wonder how much business NFA trusts generate for some attorneys and how many will put RKBA ahead of their own income.

Charles
 

color of law

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18 USC 921(a)(3) The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; [strike](C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer;[/strike] or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
Why not strike from the definition.
 

utbagpiper

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Why not strike from the definition.

Obviously, I'd prefer that supporessors be handled like any other accessory, rather than like a long gun.

Of course, given my preference, we'd drop most all federal regs of firearms as well (patent and copyright law are probably good). We'd get rid of FFLs and 4473s and the F part of the BATFE.

But, I'm not in congress so I don't get to introduce bills. And, small, incremental steps building over time seem to work better to effecting long term change than do big bang changes anyway.

From what I can determine, this is a good bill that we can and should support.

Charles
 

since9

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...small, incremental steps building over time seem to work better to effecting long term change than do big bang changes anyway.

I prefer the big bang approach. Get 'er done all at once.

From what I can determine, this is a good bill that we can and should support.

I certainly understand the many reasons why. One of the unexpected results of "baby steps," however, is that it reinforces the idea that we're somewhere near the middle of the road in the minds of the antis, when in reality, in light of the Second Amendment itself, we're far from what it demands.

In fact, we're so far from our Second Amendment it's not even funny. The phrase "shall not be infringed" is absolute, a complete moratorium against all impediments to ownership/possession and carry, and it applies to all agencies local, county, state, and federal. The only laws that are not infringements on our right to keep and bear arms deal with the safety of the manufactured firearm itself. No one wants poorly-designed or manufactured weapons blowing up in their face.

As for the rest -- suppressors, magazine limits, etc. -- they're all infringements.
 

utbagpiper

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I prefer the big bang approach. Get 'er done all at once.

Do you have any examples of that working well?

I used to think if we could get it all at once that would be great. I'm less convinced now. Even if SCOTUS were to strike down all gun laws we consider unconstitutional tomorrow, such a decision would have come after 25 years of making significant advances legislatively and socially on the issue.

Look at the issue of elective abortion. A big bang SCOTUS ruling 40 years ago. It did nothing to settle the great social debate. And now, 40 years later, pro-abortion forces are terrified at losing it if a couple of wrong justices are appointed to the court.

In contrast, as we look at the long history of racial civil rights from the 13th amendment, through the civil rights protests of the 60s and 70s, the federal Civil Rights act, voting rights bills, federal and State anti-discrimination laws, and SCOTUS rulings from Loving to Brown to cases about the racial makeup of juries, does any thinking person really think that racial civil rights are at risk in this nation? Yes, I know there are agitators who like to scare the useful idiots. But do we really think there a risk of denying the vote or other civil rights protections?

If like the Framers we consider not only our own freedoms and liberties, but also those of our posterity, I think a strong case can be made for taking the slower path that leads to greater social acceptance of the desired changes, rather than the big bang that simply shuts down the public debate and political process.

Don't get me wrong, I'll take the perfect SCOTUS ruling tomorrow if we can get it. But I'm not going to mourn if, instead, we continue to make steady if slower progress. I believe the latter course builds a far more defensible, permanent kind of change in laws, cultural values, and social mores.

Charles
 

since9

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Do you have any examples of that working well?

In the world of business, absolutely. Generally speaking, people resist change like they avoid the plague, hence the need for "change management" as an integral business process. When market forces require significant changes, however, the typical approach of incremental change can both take too long while costing too much. In such cases, large change is not merely desired, but it's required for the health if not the survival of the company. Making that work, given people's natural inclination to resist change, requires a plan, including promotion, education, and plenty of employee involvement.

I used to think if we could get it all at once that would be great. I'm less convinced now. Even if SCOTUS were to strike down all gun laws we consider unconstitutional tomorrow, such a decision would have come after 25 years of making significant advances legislatively and socially on the issue.

Copy.

Look at the issue of elective abortion. A big bang SCOTUS ruling 40 years ago. It did nothing to settle the great social debate. And now, 40 years later, pro-abortion forces are terrified at losing it if a couple of wrong justices are appointed to the court.

These two situations are seriously different, close to being polar opposites. Some would argue our Constitution's Second Amendment both recognizes a higher right of armament while prohibiting any infringement on that right, whereas opponents of abortion would argue no one has any higher right to take the life of a distinctly and genetically separate and innocent human being, regardless of the stage of his/her development or dependence on the mother or others for sustaining his/her life.

In contrast, as we look at the long history of racial civil rights from the 13th amendment, through the civil rights protests of the 60s and 70s, the federal Civil Rights act, voting rights bills, federal and State anti-discrimination laws, and SCOTUS rulings from Loving to Brown to cases about the racial makeup of juries, does any thinking person really think that racial civil rights are at risk in this nation? Yes, I know there are agitators who like to scare the useful idiots. But do we really think there a risk of denying the vote or other civil rights protections?

I think there's a difference between actual threat and perceived threat on this issue. That said, the threat is indeed much higher in some neighborhoods than others.

If like the Framers we consider not only our own freedoms and liberties, but also those of our posterity, I think a strong case can be made for taking the slower path that leads to greater social acceptance of the desired changes, rather than the big bang that simply shuts down the public debate and political process.

Social acceptance is as heavily dependent upon the way change is managed as it is by the rapidity or stateliness at which it's implemented.

Don't get me wrong, I'll take the perfect SCOTUS ruling tomorrow if we can get it. But I'm not going to mourn if, instead, we continue to make steady if slower progress. I believe the latter course builds a far more defensible, permanent kind of change in laws, cultural values, and social mores.

Again, if it's managed well, the rapidity of acceptance can be greatly accelerated.
 

solus

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as you pointed out, chg mgmt, on many social levels of our society, needs to be instituted beginning through the education of those being affected...

but because of a myriad of life long and culturally ingrained biases, e.g., religious, regional issues, is not as successful for the masses of our county's citizens, who unlike employees of a business enterprise, have no buy-in nor accoutability in the success of the changes being instituted.

ipse
 

since9

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Messages
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Location
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as you pointed out, chg mgmt, on many social levels of our society, needs to be instituted beginning through the education of those being affected...

but because of a myriad of life long and culturally ingrained biases, e.g., religious, regional issues, is not as successful for the masses of our county's citizens, who unlike employees of a business enterprise, have no buy-in nor accoutability in the success of the changes being instituted.

ipse

Good points, Solus. That does indeed make it more difficult in some cases, and in a few, it may make it impossible.

Doesn't mean we should quit trying, however. :)
 

Freedom1Man

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Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
Obviously, I'd prefer that supporessors be handled like any other accessory, rather than like a long gun.

Of course, given my preference, we'd drop most all federal regs of firearms as well (patent and copyright law are probably good). We'd get rid of FFLs and 4473s and the F part of the BATFE.

But, I'm not in congress so I don't get to introduce bills. And, small, incremental steps building over time seem to work better to effecting long term change than do big bang changes anyway.

From what I can determine, this is a good bill that we can and should support.

Charles
Why not gain a better understanding of the laws as written before demanding that they be changed?

http://www.originalintent.org/edu/chapter44.php
The Federal Firearms Act (as amended)
(18 USC, Chapter 44)

Try as you might to find the title, "Federal Firearms Act" associated with 18 USC, chapter 44, you will not. Why then do we refer to it as such here? Many of the provisions that are currently codified to Title 18, chapter 44, were not originally codified there.

The Federal Firearms Act was enacted in 1938 and it was originally codified to Title 15. So what is Title 15? It is entitled "Commerce and Trade". Do you remember that little discussion about creating vagueness where none originally existed? Well here is a stunning example. From 1938 until 1968, the Federal Firearms Act was within Title 15. That's 30 years folks! Despite the law operating just fine for 30 years, someone deemed it no longer proper to have the law contained within Title 15. Want to guess why? That's right - the government's jurisdictional limits were far too easy to ascertain when the law was within the "Commerce and Trade" title. If it wasn't moving in interstate or foreign commerce, then the US didn't have jurisdiction over it! However, by moving the Act to Title 18, and thus disconnecting the Act from the Title of "Commerce and Trade", there are few clues left to the law's original intent and its Constitutional limitations.

Despite the fact that chapter 44 of Title 18 has been amended many times, (most notably by the Gun Control Act of 1968) it is still essentially the Federal Firearms Act of 1938 [ch. 850, 52 Stat. 1252].

Having said all this, there is an interesting element to Chapter 44 and its interstate commerce authority that you should know about.

There are two different definitions for interstate and foreign commerce in Title 18. The first is found in §10 of the Title and is the definition that is generally applicable through the entire Title, unless re-defined for a specific chapter or section of the Title.

18 USC §10:
The term ''interstate commerce'', as used in this title, includes commerce between one State, Territory, Possession, or the District of Columbia and another State, Territory, Possession, or the District of Columbia. The term ''foreign commerce'', as used in this title, includes commerce with a foreign country.

This is a pretty clear definition - and it will get clearer as this article proceeds!

Interestingly, "interstate commerce" and "foreign commerce" are redefined just for chapter 44. For use within chapter 44, they are no longer two separate items, but have been combined into one legal term, to wit:

18 USC §921(2)
The term ''interstate or foreign commerce'' includes commerce between any place in a State and any place outside of that State, or within any possession of the United States (not including the Canal Zone) or the District of Columbia, but such term does not include commerce between places within the same State but through any place outside of that State. The term ''State'' includes the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and the possessions of the United States (not including the Canal Zone).
[emphasis and underlining added]

You should recognize that as a legal term, the phrase "interstate or foreign commerce" does not mean what logic might tell you it means. You must remember that it means only what Congress says it means and nothing more!

We have had to ask ourselves why the general definition provided in §10 was inadequate for use within chapter 44. If §10 was a good enough definition for all of Title 18 generally, why is it not adequate for chapter 44?

The only distinction we find is in the use of the words "...any place in a State...". Why is that change so essential? Why go through the hassle of altering the definition just to add two little words? On the surface it doesn't seem to make sense - or does it? Maybe we should ask what "place within a State" might the definition be referring to, and why would that distinction be important? Let's explore!

Title 18, §13 is a general provision section (which means it is operative throughout the Title) and is entitled "Laws of States adopted for areas within Federal jurisdiction". What does that title mean? One of the things it means is that there is "State jurisdiction" and there is "federal jurisdiction", and the two are not the same.

Before we explore §13 any further, we need to take a brief side trip and look at §7. We need to do this because §7 is specifically referred to in §13, and we'll get lost if we don't understand exactly what is being referred to in §7.

Section 7 defines the "Special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States". Although the definition is a bit long and wordy, here is the essential part in reference to what we are discussing in this article:

18 USC §7(3):
Any lands reserved or acquired for the use of the United States, and under the exclusive or concurrent jurisdiction thereof, or any place purchased or otherwise acquired by the United States by consent of the legislature of the State in which the same shall be, for the erection of a fort, magazine, arsenal, dockyard, or other needful building.

The basic meaning of that definition is any location that is not under State sovereignty, but solely under federal sovereignty, or otherwise within federal jurisdiction. It must be remembered that such federal "places" exist within the states of the Union.

One should take note of the common language, and common meaning, between 18 USC §7, and Article I, Section 8, Clause 17 of the US Constitution:

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same [federal place] shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dock-yards, and other needful buildings

Now that you can clearly see where §7 is taking us, let's go back to §13; specifically, subsection (a).

[Editor's Note: We've removed some of the excessive wordiness from §13(a) that might tend to confuse the meaning for the first-time reader.]

18 USC §13(a):
Whoever within...any places...provided in section 7 of this title...not within the jurisdiction of any State...is guilty of any act or omission which, although not made punishable by any enactment of Congress, would be punishable if committed or omitted within the jurisdiction of the State...in which such place is situated...

Ah ha! Did you get that? Ladies and gentlemen, §13 (in conjunction with §7) defines the "places" that are referred to in the definition of "interstate or foreign commerce" at §921(2). The places made mention of in §921(2) are the "places...provided in section 7 of this title", which of course we now know are federal lands (and waterways) that are not within the jurisdiction of the State, but are within the geographical boundaries of the State!

Now let's do a little of our own alteration to §921(2). Let's add the specificity that the legislative draftsmen intentionally left out when they wrote the definition of "interstate and foreign commerce" (at §921(2)). Our "clarified" version reads like this:

The term ''interstate or foreign commerce'' includes commerce between any area of land under federal jurisdiction that is within a State and any area of land under federal jurisdiction that is outside that State, or within any possession of the United States (not including the Canal Zone) or the District of Columbia.

Boy, that sure changes the meaning that you had of §921(2) about 10 minutes ago, doesn't it? Also, please note that after the part of the definition that addresses "States" is complete, it goes on to define other federal areas. In that portion, "interstate or foreign commerce" means commerce [solely] within any possession of the United States or within the District of Columbia! My, my, my. Congress sure defines terms to mean whatever the hell Congress wants them to mean!

Are you getting the picture? Every "place" being referred to in §921(2) is a place within a State, or outside a State, that is under the exclusive legislative jurisdiction of Congress, pursuant to Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17 of the US Constitution. And the "interstate and foreign commerce" being described at §921(2), is a limited form that operates only between such "places". For the purposes of chapter 44, Congress has even defined "State" as "the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and the possessions of the United States". In short, it's all territorial.

The definition of "interstate or foreign commerce", at 921(2), is only a "red herring" placed there by the legislative draftsmen to make you think the authority is nation-wide and all-pervasive under the US Constitution's interstate commerce clause. In point of fact, certain sections of chapter 44, such as 922(o)(1), which makes the mere possession of a machine gun a crime, can only be territorial in nature because Congress has no authority to define any act that takes place within a state of the Union as a crime (except such acts as take place against federal property or persons). The federal government cannot define a crime that would take place within a state of the Union because the US has no police powers in a state of the Union.

Now do you see why it was so important that chapter 44 not use the general definition of "interstate commerce" provided at §10? Two little words - "any place" - needed to be added if the law was to pass Constitutional scrutiny.

If one reads the "Congressional Findings and Declarations" in the notes for §921, one finds that Congress enacted the Federal Firearms Act, and its various amendments, in order to [ostensibly] assist the States in controlling crime. Well guess what? The Constitution does not grant the federal government any authority to assist the States of the Union in combating crime. The federal government may regulate interstate commerce; it can define crimes that may take place upon federal property; and it can exercise police powers within places that are embraced by the "exclusive legislative control" clause, but it may not do any of that upon land that is under the sovereignty of a state of the Union.

Congress is free to make any asinine statement it wants about its "intentions" or its "goals", but the text of the laws it enacts must still adhere to the limits of federal power imposed by US Constitution.

That was a cutting from the educational site. Why not use the LAW to disprove this bit of educational information?
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
Do you have any examples of that working well?

I used to think if we could get it all at once that would be great. I'm less convinced now. Even if SCOTUS were to strike down all gun laws we consider unconstitutional tomorrow, such a decision would have come after 25 years of making significant advances legislatively and socially on the issue.

Look at the issue of elective abortion. A big bang SCOTUS ruling 40 years ago. It did nothing to settle the great social debate. And now, 40 years later, pro-abortion forces are terrified at losing it if a couple of wrong justices are appointed to the court.

In contrast, as we look at the long history of racial civil rights from the 13th amendment, through the civil rights protests of the 60s and 70s, the federal Civil Rights act, voting rights bills, federal and State anti-discrimination laws, and SCOTUS rulings from Loving to Brown to cases about the racial makeup of juries, does any thinking person really think that racial civil rights are at risk in this nation? Yes, I know there are agitators who like to scare the useful idiots. But do we really think there a risk of denying the vote or other civil rights protections?

If like the Framers we consider not only our own freedoms and liberties, but also those of our posterity, I think a strong case can be made for taking the slower path that leads to greater social acceptance of the desired changes, rather than the big bang that simply shuts down the public debate and political process.

Don't get me wrong, I'll take the perfect SCOTUS ruling tomorrow if we can get it. But I'm not going to mourn if, instead, we continue to make steady if slower progress. I believe the latter course builds a far more defensible, permanent kind of change in laws, cultural values, and social mores.

Charles
Roe v Wade was not about abortion. It was about privacy and then spun to be a cornerstone case for abortion.
 
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