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Why do we have the 2nd Amendment?

hadji

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
122
Location
Spokane
In an earlier post, here, I alluded to the Magna Carta as being in the minds of our founding fathers when they wrote the 2nd Amendment.

That begs the question: "What is the Magna Carta?"

Enormous parts of the below are copied either in whole, or in part, or are paraphrases of, or inspired by the work of, Lysander Spooner, An Essay on Trial by Jury, Juries Judges of the Justice of Laws. (circa 1848)
The below is merely a re-statement of some of Spooner's thoughts, and their application to the 2nd Amendment of the United States Constitution.


Around the time of the Magna Carta, the king was, constitutionally, the entire government; the sole legislative, judicial and executive power of the nation. The executive and judicial officers were merely his servants, appointed by him, and removable at his pleasure. In addition to this, “the king himself often sat in his court, where he heard causes, and pronounced judgment; and though he was assisted by the advice of other members, it is not to be imagined that a decision could be obtained contrary to his inclination or opinion.” Judges were in those days, and afterwards, such abject servants of the king, that “we find that King Edward I. (1272 to 1307) fined and imprisoned his judges, in the same manner as Alfred the Great, among the Saxons, had done before him, by the sole exercise of this authority.”

Parliament, so far as there was a parliament, was a mere council of the king. It assembled only at the pleasure of the king; sat only during his pleasure; and when sitting had no power, so far as general legislation was concerned, beyond that of simply advising the King.
There was no House of Commons at that time, and the people had no right to be heard, unless as petitioners.

The king was, therefore, constitutionally the government; and the only legal limitation upon his power seems to have been simply the Common Law, usually called “the law of the land,” which he was bound by oath to maintain; (which oath had about the same practical value as similar oaths have always had.) This “law of the land” seems not to have been regarded at all by many of the kings, except so far as they found it convenient to do so, or were constrained to observe it by the fear of arousing resistance. But as all people are slow in making resistance, oppression and usurpation often reached a great height; and, in the case of John, they had become so intolerable as to enlist the nation almost universally against him; and he was reduced to the necessity of complying with any terms the barons saw fit to dictate to him.

It was under these circumstances, that the Great Charter of English Liberties (Magna Carta) was granted. The barons of England, sustained by the common people, having their king in their power, compelled him, as the price of his throne, to pledge himself that he would punish no freeman for a violation of any of his laws, unless with the consent of the peers – that is, the equals – of the accused.

The barons and people having obtained by the charter all the liberties they had demanded of the king, it was further provided by the charter itself that twenty-five barons should be appointed by the barons, out of their number, to keep special vigilance in the kingdom to see that the charter was observed, with authority to make war upon the king in case of its violation. The king also, by the charter, so far absolved all the people of the kingdom from their allegiance to him, as to authorize and require them to swear to obey the twenty-five barons, in case they should make war upon the king for infringement of the charter.


Being aware of the foregoing, the founding fathers realized “that the only security against the tyranny of the government lies in forcible resistance to the execution of the injustice; because the injustice will certainly be executed, unless it be forcibly resisted.”

Since, then, this forcible resistance to the injustice of the government is the only possible means of preserving liberty, it is indispensable to all legal liberty that this resistance should be legalized.

This right of resistance had to be recognized “by the constitution of the United States, as a strictly legal and constitutional right, enforced by the provision that “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” This constitutional security for “the right to keep and bear arms,” implies the right to use them – as much as a constitutional security for the right to buy and keep food would have implied the right to eat it. The constitution, therefore, takes it for granted that the people will judge of the conduct of the government, and that, as they have the right, they will also have the sense, to use arms, whenever the necessity of the case justifies it.”

It was well understood that the common people, who were well armed, would be a deterrent against an oppressive government.

I believe the above is what our founding fathers knew of, and had in mind, when they wrote the 2nd Amendment to the United States Constitution.

hadji
 

hadji

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
122
Location
Spokane
"You do know that you are preaching to the choir, right?" (paraphrased)

Yes, in a way, to some of the choir.
However, the choir has new members as of late.
I have not seen this line of thinking explained this directly on this forum yet.

And I am still discovering these concepts; they are new to me.

By extension, they may be new to others who are not as well versed as you.

Going through all of this, doing the research, and reaching the conclusions gives me a much better appreciation of why some on this forum defend this right with such fervor.
Reaching these conclusions for myself, and understanding how they were derived, makes me want to step up and take my place with you.

hadji
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Because the 1A was already taken. Imagine what would be the landscape today if we were expected to defend our free speech with our firearms from government infringements.
 

HPmatt

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
1,468
Location
Dallas
Because the 1A was already taken. Imagine what would be the landscape today if we were expected to defend our free speech with our firearms from government infringements.

Actually the 1A comes from Londonman John Wilkes - re: Wilkes-Barre PA, Wilkes County NC, Wilkesboro. His situation in mid-1700s as an extremely 'coarse' but insightful MP fighting with the King George III over Freedom of the Press, 4A rights of property/documents, and rights of a Parliamentary district to elect whomever they wanted, as opposed to whom the King/Parliament 'allowed' t/b members; he corresponded with the Founders in a lead up into items included in the Bill of Rights.
 
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Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP Enormous parts of the below are copied either in whole, or in part...

Great analysis!

Permit me to add two points, if I may. These are in no way intended as corrections, refutations, or contradictions. Literally, elaborations.

1. Look at that word Hadji used repeatedly--constitutional. Why have a constitution, any constitution? The only reason--only reason--for a constitution is to limit the power of government. Yep, Magna Carta was a limitation on government--the king. The nobles basically backed into a corner King John, and waving swords under his nose said, "Look here, buster. Either, you agree to some our restrictions on your self-asserted right to do anything you please; or, we're gonna have a new king around here." King John signed.

But, Magna Carta is not the first document of the English constitution. Wait!?! What!?! The English have a queen today. How do they have a constitution? The Brits have something called a constitutional monarchy. Translation: a monarch tied down very well with lots of restrictions on his or her power. You see, the British constitution is not a single document like ours. Theirs is a whole series of documents spanning over 800 years. (Yeah, how's that for a constitution? Nearly a millennium of documents, agreements, and restrictions all boiling down to about four very major powers left to HM Queen Elizabeth, today.)

Magna Carta was not the first in the list of constitutional documents. In many, if not most, lists of English constitutional documents, you will find the constitutions of Clarendon, and the Assizes of Clarendon. These date from the reign of King John's father, Henry II. They had to do with establishing royal courts. Actually, they were outgrowths of Henry II trying to expand his royal influence into the countryside. But, they nonetheless later became unintentional restrictions on government. That is to say, what Henry intended to be expansions of power, later became restrictions when lawyers said, "No, no. Your predecessor Henry offered this and that under the Clarendon documents. You can't suddenly go off the reservation and do what you want. You have to follow Henry." Thus, even though Henry II was trying to expand his royal power, ultimately his accomplishments were presented to later monarchs as restrictions or promises they had to keep. Pay attention to that lesson. Even when government is trying something sneaky, it can be used against them. Sorta like the Miranda warning: "Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law..." Well, that cuts both ways Officer Pushy. Anything you say, I can use against you in a federal civil rights lawsuit. Cop: "Oh, you think you're a smart a$$, huh?" Citizen: "Thank you confessing that you consider exercising rights paid for in blood across eight centuries being, in your words, a smart a$$. That will look real good in a federal deposition. Hand me another one. Please, please, please."

So, pay very, very close attention to Henry's attempted expansion of power, and how that was ultimately turned into a restriction on government. Oh, yes, indeed. Very nice lesson in that.

2. I've got some chores to do. I'll come back and post later as an "edit" to this post.

ETA: <chuckle> Well, now I'm back. And, I can't remember what my second point was gonna be. Dang it!
 
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countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
If Government can put restrictions on a right, the question is, is it a right?

The average citizen cannot possess the weaponry of the standing army, therefore our right to defend against a tyrannical government is null and void actually it does not exist..

In natural law, the right to keep an bear arms is not to protect ones self from the government, it is to protect ones self and family from those that wish to do us ill will..

In 21st century America, picking a fight or defending ones self against government with a weapon will only end in our death.. The correct way to defend against government abuses is with the pen via the court system... To coin an old phrase " the pen is mightier than the sword/gun."..

My .02

Regards
CCJ
 
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