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NRA employee involved in a ND

WalkingWolf

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There is some firearms training that one can do without live firearms but there is training that a live firearm is needed.

Most non firearms do not operate the same as the real thing, teaching some one some operational drills do not work with non firearms.

With the advent of good quality training guns the use of real firearms has been greatly reduced for a lot of training but can not be totally eliminated.

There are strict safety protocol's when live firearms are used in a non range setting.

The idea that most departments do not allow live firearms in all class room training is not true it has been greatly reduced but it can not be totally eliminated.

Even 30 years ago firearms training classes with force, on force, and retention firearms were NOT allowed in the classroom. I have half a dozen airsoft that ALL have the same manual of arms of their real counterparts. They also have recoil, more recoil than a 22lr of the same size, they were designed that way. A firearm is needed for the full feel of firing a gun, which means the gun is on the firing line. With the tools today if an instructor does it any other way the instructor is an idiot, sorry.

Blue guns cost about 60 dollars. Airsoft $100 - $200, springer about $25. Police depts who buy them in bulk get them cheaper. If you can afford a gun you can afford training tools.

We have seen several concealed carry instructors who have shot students, or people in the same building. Not long ago a police officer shot a elderly librarian in a force, on force training incident where a live weapon was used. The fact is all ND's that I know were because somebody was handling a firearm for purposes other than hunting, sport shooting, or self defense, that is downright stupid.

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I am sure though the families of those people affected would have appreciated some common sense from people paid to have common sense. I would bet that people who have done the ND's would have appreciated someone pointing out what they were doing was stupid. The police officer that killed that little old lady would still have a job, and not be the pariah of the community that he is now.

What does it take for so called professional trainers to act like professionals. So far some have proven they cannot be trusted with a butter knife.
 
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mikeyb

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I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I am sure though the families of those people affected would have appreciated some common sense from people paid to have common sense. I would bet that people who have done the ND's would have appreciated someone pointing out what they were doing was stupid. The police officer that killed that little old lady would still have a job, and not be the piranha of the community that he is now.

What does it take for so called professional trainers to act like professionals. So far some have proven they cannot be trusted with a butter knife.

But we all know common sense isn't common, right? Today, it's all about the youtube clicks and keyboard commandos.

Oh, and do you mean "pariah"? ;)
 

WalkingWolf

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But we all know common sense isn't common, right? Today, it's all about the youtube clicks and keyboard commandos.

Oh, and do you mean "pariah"? ;)

Yup. Thanks for correcting me.

It isn't just a youtube problem, though it may have made it worse. ND's are all caused by careless handling of firearms, and that has been going on before the internet. Play with a loaded gun, and sooner or later it will bite you. In this case I am guessing that the dummy was holstering a loaded firearm for some reason without following rules of safety. It would help to know more about the details of exactly what he was doing.

In this day, and age there is no excuse for ND's with the tools available.
 

solus

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i am always impressed when someone cleaning their firearm accidentally shoots and kills their partner!!

ipse
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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Even 30 years ago firearms training classes with force, on force, and retention firearms were NOT allowed in the classroom. What does it take for so called professional trainers to act like professionals. So far some have proven they cannot be trusted with a butter knife.

Thanks of clarifying your pervious statement.

As I stated training aids that duplicate some aspects of firearms training have taken over for a lot of firearms training.

But live fire training, the handling of real firearms and live ammunition is still part of the training cycle under the proper conditions.

The case where the elderly librarian, I do not believe that there was and instructor trained in force on force on site at the time of the shooting.

Yes we have come a long ways to make things safer over the last decades.
 

OC for ME

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And the world is perfect.
A handguns does not go bang until a citizen intentionally handles the handgun. It is the mishandling that may be a cause for concern. Four simple firearm safety rules, not rocket science. Would you happen to be a 99.9% adherence to those four simple safety rules is good enough because the world is not perfect?
 

KBCraig

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Every discharge is intentional. The handgun does not leave a holster on its own volition. No firearm loads itself. A trigger does not move without an external action being applied to it. Shooting oneself, someone else, or something else, unintentionally, is negligence. Zero errors must be the minimum standard.

Responsible gun owners do not permit the discharge of their firearm(s) unintentionally.

So there I was at the outdoor rifle range, all by myself, putting .22 holes in paper at 25 yards. I'm at the middle bench of five, shooting a target rifle with a very light trigger.

Dude shows up, nods, and sets up his .308 AR with the mother of all muzzle brakes, and as I'm settling in, finger nowhere near the trigger, he touches off the first round. The side-blast rocked my hat and hearing protection. I settled in again, tried to pull the trigger, and realize that the concussion from his compensator caused my rifle to fire.

I didn't permit that discharge; I'm still a responsible gun owner. But it was not intentional, nor reasonably foreseeable.
 

JoeSparky

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So there I was at the outdoor rifle range, all by myself, putting .22 holes in paper at 25 yards. I'm at the middle bench of five, shooting a target rifle with a very light trigger.

Dude shows up, nods, and sets up his .308 AR with the mother of all muzzle brakes, and as I'm settling in, finger nowhere near the trigger, he touches off the first round. The side-blast rocked my hat and hearing protection. I settled in again, tried to pull the trigger, and realize that the concussion from his compensator caused my rifle to fire.

I didn't permit that discharge; I'm still a responsible gun owner. But it was not intentional, nor reasonably foreseeable.

And I would assess no negligence on your part for a one time occurrence. Now for experimentation I'd have been tempted to repeat after you were set up and assured your muzzle was in a safe direction. If nothing else but to see if it happened again.

If it was repeatable, I might like the trigger a little "less light"!
 

OC for ME

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So there I was at the outdoor rifle range, all by myself, putting .22 holes in paper at 25 yards. I'm at the middle bench of five, shooting a target rifle with a very light trigger.

Dude shows up, nods, and sets up his .308 AR with the mother of all muzzle brakes, and as I'm settling in, finger nowhere near the trigger, he touches off the first round. The side-blast rocked my hat and hearing protection. I settled in again, tried to pull the trigger, and realize that the concussion from his compensator caused my rifle to fire.

I didn't permit that discharge; I'm still a responsible gun owner. But it was not intentional, nor reasonably foreseeable.
Interesting sequence of events.

We are discussing the safe handling of a handgun. My post, that you quote, is clear in this regard. The OP's linked story is not in anyway analogous to your specific incident.

Joe Sparky provides sage advice.

I stand by my premise and comments as unassailable. As others have rightly stated, training with live ammo when not at a firing station on the range is inviting disaster...embarrassment at a minimum.
 

WalkingWolf

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Interesting sequence of events.

We are discussing the safe handling of a handgun. My post, that you quote, is clear in this regard. The OP's linked story is not in anyway analogous to your specific incident.

Joe Sparky provides sage advice.

I stand by my premise and comments as unassailable. As others have rightly stated, training with live ammo when not at a firing station on the range is inviting disaster...embarrassment at a minimum.

I bit my lip on this one. A discharge from not properly maintained, or intentional changes of a firearm, or equipment is still an ND.
 

OC for ME

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I bit my lip on this one. A discharge from not properly maintained, or intentional changes of a firearm, or equipment is still an ND.
I never adjust factory settings. I train to use the firearm right out of the box. Others have differing opinions. Maybe a firearm has a light trigger right out of the box, OK...I have yet to find one, and I am not looking either.
 

WalkingWolf

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I never adjust factory settings. I train to use the firearm right out of the box. Others have differing opinions. Maybe a firearm has a light trigger right out of the box, OK...I have yet to find one, and I am not looking either.

I do function tests on every firearm I own, if they fail, they get fixed. Part of that function tests(while empty of course) is banging the firearm around/hitting it with my hands trying to get it to dry fire. So far I have been unsuccessful with all my firearms. It really takes a lot to make a firearm to boom without the trigger being pulled.

Some firearms though, particularly old SA revolvers can go boom if the hammer is hit with a round in the chamber. For that type of weapon there are simple solutions, so when it comes down to it, unintended discharges where no negligence is involved are extremely rare.
 

OC for ME

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http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...ts-Himself-at-NRA-Headquarters-418677433.html

A National Rifle Association employee accidentally shot himself while doing firearms training at the organization's headquarters, according to police.

sigh...

ipse

Every discharge is intentional. The handgun does not leave a holster on its own volition. No firearm loads itself. A trigger does not move without an external action being applied to it. Shooting oneself, someone else, or something else, unintentionally, is negligence. Zero errors must be the minimum standard.

Responsible gun owners do not permit the discharge of their firearm(s) unintentionally.

No, you were. I was discussing your unqualified statement that every discharge is intentional.
Every discharge is intentional.
 

KBCraig

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Every discharge is intentional.

Except when they're not.

We can talk about whether a particular discharge is accidental, negligent, or unintentional... but every shot fired that wasn't intentional.... well, isn't intentional. And accidental/negligent discharges are unintentional by definition.
 

OC for ME

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Except when they're not.

We can talk about whether a particular discharge is accidental, negligent, or unintentional... but every shot fired that wasn't intentional.... well, isn't intentional. And accidental/negligent discharges are unintentional by definition.
I agree to disagree.
 

KBCraig

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I agree to disagree.

It's nice to disagree without being disagreeable, and uncommon here on OCDO. ;)

So I'll continue our agreeable disagreement by agreeing that every discharge requires an external action. Even the hypothetical case where a loaded firearm's safety mechanism rusts away and causes it to fire, was a result of the external action of oxidation. But was that intentional?

If it was, then the act of chambering a round must be construed as an intent to discharge a firearm. I don't think that's your argument, unless you're an Israeli Carry proponent, or someone who hunts with an empty chamber.

Chambering a round signals an intent to fire if certain future conditions are met: the game animal appears, the bad guy appears, or the target and wind conditions are right. If those conditions aren't in place, a discharge can be accidental or negligent or unforeseeable, all of which are unintentional.

I gave the example of my .22 rifle firing from the external force of the muzzle blast concussion from an adjoining bench. That discharge was not intentional on anyone's part.
 
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