Trespassed from sons little league games.

Hello all,

Yesterday I was trespassed from my sons little league games simply because I chose to open carry on such a nice day. The location of the games was at a public park in Tenino Wa. For several hours I had been at the park and had no complaints from any of the parents there nor any one else until I went to use the restroom and a man approached me and told me I needed to leave. He said he would call the cops if I did not. My response was that I was using the restroom and to go ahead and call the cops. Roughly 10-15 min later a Tenino PD Officer responds and I talk to her and she was very polite and really didn't have a problem with me being there at the park however the man who called told her expressly to trespass me and arrest me if I came back. I wasn't there to cause a scene so I walked with her over to her car me tlked on the way. She told me that I was correct that I was fine to carry in the park but because the fields were in use by the organization that runs the little league that I couldn't be near the fields during there games. I was trespassed from the game but not the park so I spent the rest of the time with my daughter on the playground. The trespass notice states that I'm trespassed from all Larch Mountain little league events but not any specific place. Quite a few of the other parents were not happy with me being trespassed and several thanked me for carrying that day.

My question for you the forum members is do I have any legal recourse as all the games are played on public park fields and does an organization have the right to trespass me from public land they are using or am I pretty much screwed from being able to attend my sons games. If I should contact an attorney are there any good recommendations?

Thanks for any help or advice
Robert

In a bid to get "the other side of the story", I've asked them to explain their legal reasoning on their Facebook page.

as i do not do FB, i did check al's invention and found the that there is nothing on larch mountain LL site, http://www.larchmtlittleleague.com/home.php regarding behaviour at their games. that stated...there is an interesting listing for Dick's Sporting goods link which when clicked on goes to a 404 error.

if Dick's is a financial sponsor...might wish to ping them about WTF is going on and how this type of activity is bad publicity for their local store!!

I am more interested in 'who' actually put in the complaint and if in fact they speak for the LMLL organization. does your 'ticket' say who that was and if they have the power to 'compel' the nice LE to trespass citizens! i have difficulty understanding why a nice LE would take someone's word they have control over the property to allow them to write a complaint.

second, that the officer gave you a written ticket, would justify a visit the local chief or assistant or public affairs officer and ask what is going on?

third, i would personally contact the park's sr management and ask if they know they about the incident and could they get back to you on how they are going to preclude this from happening to other citizens in the future.

finally, being of slightly malicious vein, i would call the local news tv media and local newspapers and regale your torrid story of trespass abuse at the hands of this vindictive somebody.or other, especially after being there all afternoon and then having them approach you in the bathroom of all places!!

ipse

oh, btw...any requirement to appear before a magistrate/judge/judicial arbitrator?

cuz on further thought...how does a 'ticket' trespass you in the future w/o your day in court?

The person who requested the trespass notice was the president of the league. His name is Howard Wheeler. I am unsure of wheather or not they lease the fields for the games or not. I'm just looking for a diresction to go to find out if the trespass is valid or not assuming is public property and the league does not own but uses it even if they pay a fee or not.

Also no ticket of any kind. I took a picture of the trespass notice and they are sending me a copy in the mail. As far as I know there is no requirement to stand before a judge.

Who is this man who called? What is his authority? What is his position in the little league organization? Does he have the right to speak for them or make any requests on their behalf?

per Tenino Wa code of ordinances:
16.08.220
No person shall possess or discharge any firearm, bow and arrow, air or gas weapon, slingshot, fireworks or explosive in the city park except at times and in areas specifically designated by the city council and posted for such use.

16.08.370
B. The offender need not be charged, tried, or convicted of any crime or infraction in order for an exclusion notice to be issued or effective. The exclusion may be based upon observation by the public works director, chief of police or designee, or upon civilian reports that would ordinarily be relied upon by police officers in the determination of probable cause.

this out-of- stater who, per freedom1man, et al., doesn't know shinola, but my advice if you wish to see your offspring to play ball you might seek an attorney's guidance to fight these abusive local ordinances, especially 16.08.370 B which denines jurisprudence against this kind of power abuse.

ipse

https://www.municode.com/library/wa/tenino/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=14936

I appreciate the responses. I'll follow up on Monday and tues with the parks department and Tenino PD as well as an attorney. The man who called the cops was the president of the league and he lives in Tenino as well as has a business in tenino. As far as I know, the league probably paid a fee to the city to reserve the field or fields for the games. I don't know if because fees were paid for reservation that they have exclusive rights to public property or the right to exclude the public from watching the games regardless of the reason they don't want somebody there. Now if I was causing trouble or being belligerent in an unlawful way I can fully understand being trespassed but not for leagally exercising my right to carry in the manner I choose.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.290

State preemption.
The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.

Click to expand...

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.300

In relevant part and added emphasis:

(2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:
(a) Restricting the discharge of firearms in any portion of their respective jurisdictions where there is a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals, or property will be jeopardized. Such laws and ordinances shall not abridge the right of the individual guaranteed by Article I, section 24 of the state Constitution to bear arms in defense of self or others; and
(b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, except that such restrictions shall not apply to:
(i) Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070 or exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060; or
(ii) Any showing, demonstration, or lecture involving the exhibition of firearms.

Click to expand...

My guess is that they will try to claim the fields constitute a stadium, which is wishful thinking at its worst. Also, I found this interesting little item while looking up info. Not sure what it really means since it doesn't actually say where the funding comes from.

Bottom line, if you're licensed, I'd tell Howard Wheeler to shove it. But, I never went to law school.

The explanation I received from the officer who responded was that I could be in the park just not at the fields that the game was being held at due to the little league association having paid to rent the field and since the president of said association wanted me trespassed he had the say so in that regard. Logically to me that doesn't make sense as most parks charge fees for reservations of any facilities to cover admin cost and such but a fee doesn't account to ownership or any expectation of privacy . The park is still a public facility and as such open to the general public. I have every right to be there wether my son is involved or I'm out for a stroll in the park and just stop to watch a game. I'm aware of state preemption and had explained that to the officer. According to the trespass notice, I've been trespassed from and I quote "all Larch Mountain Little League events". Not the park itself. So I quess I'm questioning the legality of the trespass notice itself as no physical space or address was listed. I have a photo of the notice and they are sendin me a paper copy. I can't post any photos though so if anyone wants to see it let me know how to get it to you.

a search of WA Sec of State for Larch Mountain LL shows it is inactive as of 2012!

https://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?ubi=602114012

ipse

Also have the Tenino Parks director contact the Lacey Parks director, and or police department. Lacey used to have a no guns in parks rule until I brought it up, and before we even met. The Lacey attorney found the preemption over ruled them.

"per Tenino Wa code of ordinances:
16.08.220
No person shall possess or discharge any firearm, bow and arrow, air or gas weapon, slingshot, fireworks or explosive in the city park except at times and in areas specifically designated by the city council and posted for such use."

Lacey had this wording, but by being an active citizen this was struck down.

I'm definitely going to make myself heard. Thanks for all the pointers. By the the way golddigger14, the Sig P229 Elite stainless you convinced me to buy a few weeks back at Cabelas is simply amazing. Actually I talked myself into that one. Beautiful gun though.

fraid, i'm more concerned about the legality of the notice of trespass " w/o being charged, tried, or convicted..." or any apparent judicial oversight of the citizen's due process!

ipse

I understand your concern. It concerned me as well. I chose not to make a huge scene at the time because of my son and possible disruptions to the game. Monday I will know more after I contact an attorney and get some legal guidance. I'll post back any updates as the process goes along. I do believe the law is on my side it's just getting the right people to wrap their mind around that fact.

solus said:

a search of WA Sec of State for Larch Mountain LL shows it is inactive as of 2012!

https://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?ubi=602114012

ipse

Click to expand...

Exceedingly interesting!

After more research last night I found this:

Washington State Legislature
Menu Search
Print
WACs > Title 468 > Chapter 468-300 > Section 468-300-806

468-300-800 << 468-300-806 >> 468-300-811

Agency filings affecting this section
WAC 468-300-806

No trespass warnings.

(1) This chapter shall be enforced so as to emphasize voluntary compliance with all applicable laws, rules, regulations, statutes, and policies, and so that inadvertent and/or minor violations of all applicable laws, rules, regulations, statutes, and policies can be corrected without resort to the issuance of a no trespass warning notice. Therefore, prior to issuing a no trespass warning notice to an individual, an authorized officer may choose, in his or her discretion, to first issue a verbal warning and/or a "warning letter" to an individual who exhibits "unacceptable behavior" which does not rise to the level of criminal conduct and/or does not constitute a safety risk.
(2) An authorized officer may issue a no trespass warning notice, which shall be valid and enforceable for a period of sixty days from the date of its issuance, to any individual when he or she has good cause to issue such a no trespass warning notice, which shall conform to the requirements of subsection (4) of this section. Violation of any term of a no trespass warning notice shall constitute the crime of criminal trespass under chapter 9A.52 RCW.
(3) Should an individual:
(a) Violate the terms of the no trespass warning notice; or
(b) Receive two no trespass warning notices within a one-year period, then the individual shall be issued a third no trespass warning notice by an authorized officer, which shall be valid and enforceable for a period of one year from the date of the issuance of the third no trespass warning notice.
(4) A no trespass warning notice shall:
(a) Be in writing and signed by the individual authorized officer issuing it;
(b) Contain the date of issuance, the violation that the person is alleged to have committed, and a citation to the code, statute, or rule violated;
(c) Specify the places where the individual will be expelled from and the length during the period in which the no trespass warning notice is valid and enforceable;
(d) Set out the method for appealing the notice, which shall also include the address where the appeal should be sent;
(e) Prominently display a warning of the consequences for failure to comply with the notice and state that a violation of the terms of the notice will constitute criminal trespass under chapter 9A.52 RCW.
(5) The person being expelled need not be charged, tried, or convicted of any crime or be issued an infraction or have an infraction found committed in order for a no trespass warning notice to be issued or effective. The authorized officer need only establish that good cause existed to support the issuance of the no trespass warning notice.
[Statutory Authority: RCW 47.56.030 and 47.60.010. WSR 13-16-010, § 468-300-806, filed 7/25/13, effective 8/25/13

After reading subsection 4, my notice does not contain a violation I was alleged to commit not a citation to a statute or code of a violation. My notice does not specify a place or places where I was expelled from not the length of time the notice is enforceable. Does not set out a method for appealing the notice. Does not properly display a warning of the consequences of violating notice.

Looks as though I can get the notice dropped on the basis that it does not comply with the above WAC code.

Also after looking at the notice again, it specifically states that Howard Wheeler is the owner or authorized representative of the premises which he is not. Should be easy to get dropped just by calling the police chief. If he is reluctant then I'll call an attorney.

please havoc, do me a favor go back and look at the main topic (468-300) and you will discern you are reading guidance covering the Washington State Ferry system and posting -800 series covering WSF property alone!

now, unless tenino's ball fields on located on WSF property, i do not believe those citations you mentioned are applicable.

that stated, some savant on the tenino city council might have misread those same RCWs and incorporated them into the city's ordinances thinking what a brilliant concept!

ipse

Best not to cooperate with "trespass notices". Don't fill out their little form. Don't sign anything. Don't cooperate, except to the extent required by law. Just say No.

deanf said:

Best not to cooperate with "trespass notices". Don't fill out their little form. Don't sign anything. Don't cooperate, except to the extent required by law. Just say No.

Click to expand...

Probably should have stood my ground. In this case I suppose it could be considered a tactical retreat. I was not looking to ruin my sons day. I put a call in to an attorney. I was told that yes my rights were violated and would be best to talk to Dan Moody who is the chief of police and try to get things cleared up. I have options if they refuse. Any advice in wether or not it would be a good idea to record the phone conversation with the police chief?