Not carrying per sheriffs request

GnarTank · Jul 21, 2017

I live on a piece of property in MI with access to a lake. I regularly OC in my yard and sometimes have to deal with people tresspassing, mostly people fishing. Everytime I go tell people to leave I carry for my own protection, and to potentially ward off others from tresspassing. Ive recently had trouble with a neighbor that feels its "his right" to be on the property. After countless times of telling him to leave he finally challenged me to call the police. Last time I saw him, I did. I made the officer aware of the fact that I carry on the property and he advised me to stop as the neightbor could say I pulled it on him even if I didn't, leaving it as a "he said she said" situation. I'm not sure what to do as its my right to carry but I also don't want to get into legal trouble because a crazy neighbor claimed I pulled a gun on him. Advice?

Sorry for any typos, I posted this from my phone

Fallschirjmäger · Jul 21, 2017

Ask Deputy Dawg what he would do should someone call the Sheriff and make a baseless accusation that he had 'drawn down' on a citizen. Would he face charges or be subject to an investigation?
Your defense should be the same.

The Deputy's hypothetical situation could happen to anyone, anywhere, at any time. Fortunately the law requires that the prosecution prove 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that something occurred, unlike a civil trial where it depends on the preponderance of the evidence ('he said v. she said').

color of law · Jul 21, 2017

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(zq...g.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-411i

750.411i Definitions; aggravated stalking; circumstances; violation as felony; penalty; probation; additional conditions of probation; effect of continued course of conduct; rebuttable presumption; additional penalty.

(1) As used in this section:

(e) “Stalking” means a willful course of conduct involving repeated or continuing harassment of another individual that would cause a reasonable person to feel terrorized, frightened, intimidated, threatened, harassed, or molested and that actually causes the victim to feel terrorized, frightened, intimidated, threatened, harassed, or molested.

Could you be accused of stalking?
But, what about Unconsented contact?

(f) “Unconsented contact” means any contact with another individual that is initiated or continued without that individual's consent or in disregard of that individual's expressed desire that the contact be avoided or discontinued. Unconsented contact includes, but is not limited to, any of the following:

(i) Following or appearing within the sight of that individual.

(ii) Approaching or confronting that individual in a public place or on private property.

I hope you have NO TRESPASSING signs posted and NO FISHING signs posted.

color of law · Jul 21, 2017

NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 451 of 1994

324.73102 Entering or remaining on property of another; consent; exceptions.

Sec. 73102.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (4), a person shall not enter or remain upon the property of another person, other than farm property or a wooded area connected to farm property, to engage in any recreational activity or trapping on that property without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent, if either of the following circumstances exists:

(a) The property is fenced or enclosed and is maintained in such a manner as to exclude intruders.

(b) The property is posted in a conspicuous manner against entry. The minimum letter height on the posting signs shall be 1 inch. Each posting sign shall be not less than 50 square inches, and the signs shall be spaced to enable a person to observe not less than 1 sign at any point of entry upon the property.

(2) Except as provided in subsection (4), a person shall not enter or remain upon farm property or a wooded area connected to farm property for any recreational activity or trapping without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent, whether or not the farm property or wooded area connected to farm property is fenced, enclosed, or posted.

(3) On fenced or posted property or farm property, a fisherman wading or floating a navigable public stream may, without written or oral consent, enter upon property within the clearly defined banks of the stream or, without damaging farm products, walk a route as closely proximate to the clearly defined bank as possible when necessary to avoid a natural or artificial hazard or obstruction, including, but not limited to, a dam, deep hole, or a fence or other exercise of ownership by the riparian owner.

(4) A person other than a person possessing a firearm may, unless previously prohibited in writing or orally by the property owner or his or her lessee or agent, enter on foot upon the property of another person for the sole purpose of retrieving a hunting dog. The person shall not remain on the property beyond the reasonable time necessary to retrieve the dog. In an action under section 73109 or 73110, the burden of showing that the property owner or his or her lessee or agent previously prohibited entry under this subsection is on the plaintiff or prosecuting attorney, respectively.

(5) Consent to enter or remain upon the property of another person pursuant to this section may be given orally or in writing. The consent may establish conditions for entering or remaining upon that property. Unless prohibited in the written consent, a written consent may be amended or revoked orally. If the owner or his or her lessee or agent requires all persons entering or remaining upon the property to have written consent, the presence of the person on the property without written consent is prima facie evidence of unlawful entry.

Post your property.

countryclubjoe · Jul 21, 2017

OP, I suggest you purchase and use a video recorder.

Good luck.

CCJ

GnarTank · Jul 21, 2017

Thanks everyone. I have posted no tresspassing signs but no "no fishing" signs as the entire lake is within the bounds of the property. I do take photos of the trespasser on a still camera everytime I see him but no video. I could be a stalker on my own property?

Grapeshot · Jul 21, 2017

Good advice is worthless unless you follow through.

color of law · Jul 21, 2017

GnarTank said:
Thanks everyone. I have posted no tresspassing signs but no "no fishing" signs as the entire lake is within the bounds of the property. I do take photos of the trespasser on a still camera every time I see him but no video. I could be a stalker on my own property?

Does the law say you can't.? No it doesn't. That is the problem with the law. It's done against husbands and wives all the time.

countryclubjoe · Jul 21, 2017

GnarTank said:
Thanks everyone. I have posted no tresspassing signs but no "no fishing" signs as the entire lake is within the bounds of the property. I do take photos of the trespasser on a still camera everytime I see him but no video. I could be a stalker on my own property?

The video and weapon are your best friends.. No, you cannot be charged with stalking for using the video camera, however without said video camera you could be exposing yourself to unnecessary legal issues. Be armed and be wise!

CCJ

color of law · Jul 21, 2017

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.234e Brandishing firearm in public; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

Sec. 234e.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not willfully and knowingly brandish a firearm in public.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to either of the following:

(a) A peace officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer.

(b) A person lawfully acting in self-defense or defense of another under the self-defense act, 2006 PA 309, MCL 780.971 to 780.974.

(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

I guess you can wave your gun around as long as you stay on your property.

Grapeshot · Jul 21, 2017

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.234e Brandishing firearm in public; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

Sec. 234e.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not willfully and knowingly brandish a firearm in public.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to either of the following:

(a) A peace officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer.

(b) A person lawfully acting in self-defense or defense of another under the self-defense act, 2006 PA 309, MCL 780.971 to 780.974.

(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

color of law said:
I guess you can wave your gun around as long as you stay on your property.

How did you come to that conclusion?

color of law · Jul 21, 2017

Grapeshot said:
How did you come to that conclusion?

750.234e Brandishing firearm in public; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not willfully and knowingly brandish a firearm in public.
You know the difference between public versus private.

JTHunter2 · Jul 21, 2017

GnarTank - you might also consider a CHEAP digital camera that you can hang around your neck or stick in a shirt pocket.

And, just for your info, there is a practice that some "antis" have advocated called "swatting". They would call police when they see somebody legally carrying in the bizarre hope that they legal carrier would be confronted by the cops - to their detriment. This "neighbor" could try the same tactic which is why I suggested the cheap camera.
Let him explain that video! :banana:

Bikenut · Jul 22, 2017

I will add my voice to those who are suggesting using a video camera to record any and all interactions with trespassers. Actually that would be a wise thing to do whether you are armed or not simply because the video not only shows what did happen but also, perhaps more importantly, shows what didn't happen.

Grapeshot · Jul 22, 2017

Tell the nice sheriff that you recorded him. No he can't hear it yet - it isn't time.

KBCraig · Jul 30, 2017

color of law said:
750.234e Brandishing firearm in public; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not willfully and knowingly brandish a firearm in public.
You know the difference between public versus private.

And you know, or should know, that one can be "in public" on private property. Being nude on your front lawn in a city neighborhood is a good example.

color of law · Jul 30, 2017

KBCraig said:
And you know, or should know, that one can be "in public" on private property. Being nude on your front lawn in a city neighborhood is a good example.

Incorrect. You can be be viewed from public property even though you are standing on your own private property. But, the statute only addresses willfully and knowingly brandishing a firearm in the public.

Adjective: "in" (of a person) present at one's home. "we knocked at the door but there was no one in"
Synonyms: present, (at) home.

F350 · Aug 2, 2017

As many others have said; get a video camera.

Then tell deputy dawg to perform un-natual acts on himself.

I had property in SE Missouri (heart of the meth problem) and use to patrol my property on an ATV with either an AR, FN-FAL or M1-A in a scabbard and a G20 10mm in a thigh holster. Ran into a deputy who stopped me (property was irregularly shaped with county road on 2 sides, I was on the road) with overheads and "advised" me I shouldn't carry weapons. I told him exactly where he could put his advice and asked for his name, he drove off but I got his plate # and called the sheriff, sheriff was real nice and said he would talk to his deputy, also said anyone with acreage who isn't armed when out and about was "a damned fool".

DeSchaine · Aug 2, 2017

Screw the county. Call the DNR. Since the entire lake is within the bounds of your property, the "neighbor" is poaching.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-42199_43145---,00.html

That being said, MI's Trespassing law:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(35...tname=mcl-750-552&query=on&highlight=Trespass

And if the person commits a felony in your presence:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(35...leg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-764-16

OC for ME · Aug 2, 2017

What DeSchaine said...simple trespassing is not a felony anywhere that I know of and I could be wrong. Is poaching a misdemeanor or felony in MI? Every time you see a trespasser photograph/record, call the cops. Get the cops to pile on poaching charges as well.

Not carrying per sheriffs request

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