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The Constitution IS living and breathing

Grapeshot

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Have introduced a new take/perspective in my thinking.

The Constitution is a fire breathing dragon when her nest is disturbed. Talons, beak and wings that beat. She lives to protect and defend.

Don't climb that mountain unless you intend to help her and then do so very carefully.
 

JamesCanby

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Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
But, what do we do when all three branches of government kicks it aside?

"WE the People" have the ultimate authority to decide what is Constitutional and what is not. Not through anarchy nor revolution, but through a variety of actions:

  • Elect those people who agree with how you want legislation enacted to achieve the changes you want to see.
  • Change the election laws to ensure that the will of the People are what elects representatives, not corporations, PACs, Lobbyists or others who are not individual citizens
  • If all else fails, work to convene a Constitutional Convention, understanding that once convened all parts of the Constitution are up for change, not just the part you're interested in changing
  • Although I am not in favor of arbitrary term limits -- elections being the easiest and currently available mechanism to limit the term of any elected official -- it may well come to that even though it would mean "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

Note that none of the above are easy paths.... WE the People actually have to get off our arses and (in the paraphrased words of Ghandi) "Be the change we hope to see."
 

MamaLiberty

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I didn't "quit" - I never started. Spooner explains it far better than I could.

NO TREASON. https://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/spooner/NoTreason/
No. VI.
The Constitution of No Authority.

BY LYSANDER SPOONER.

BOSTON:
1870.
The Constitution has no inherent authority or obligation. It has no authority or obligation at all, unless as a contract between man and man. And it does not so much as even purport to be a contract between persons now existing. It purports, at most, to be only a contract between persons living eighty years ago. And it can be supposed to have been a contract then only between persons who had already come to years of discretion, so as to be competent to make reasonable and obligatory contracts. Furthermore, we know, historically, that only a small portion even of the people then existing were consulted on the subject, or asked, or permitted to express either their consent or dissent in any formal manner. Those persons, if any, who did give their consent formally, are all dead now. Most of them have been dead forty, fifty, sixty, or seventy years. And the Constitution, so far as it was their contract, died with them. They had no natural power or right to make it obligatory upon their children. It is not only plainly impossible, in the nature of things, that they could bind their posterity, but they did not even attempt to bind them. That is to say, the instrument does not purport to be an agreement between any body but “the people” then existing; nor does it, either expressly or impliedly, assert any right, power, or disposition, on their part, to bind anybody but themselves. Let us see. Its language is:

<snip>

Inasmuch as the Constitution was never signed, nor agreed to, by anybody, as a contract, and therefore never bound anybody, and is now binding upon nobody; and is, moreover, such an one as no people can ever hereafter be expected to consent to, except as they may be forced to do so at the point of the bayonet, it is perhaps of no importance what its true legal meaning, as a contract, is. Nevertheless, the writer thinks it proper to say that, in his opinion, the Constitution is no such instrument as it has generally been assumed to be; but that by false interpretations, and naked usurpations, the government has been made in practice a very widely, and almost wholly, different thing from what the Constitution itself purports to authorize. He has heretofore written much, and could write much more, to prove that such is the truth. But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain—that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist.
 

countryclubjoe

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We need term limits on the Supreme court Justices, twelve year terms would be proper.. Life time tenure leads to despotism and incompetence.

See The Liberty Amendments circa 2013 by Mark Levin.

My .02
CCJ
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
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Location
here nc
"WE the People" have the ultimate authority to decide what is Constitutional and what is not. Not through anarchy nor revolution, but through a variety of actions:

  • Elect those people who agree with how you want legislation enacted to achieve the changes you want to see.
  • Change the election laws to ensure that the will of the People are what elects representatives, not corporations, PACs, Lobbyists or others who are not individual citizens
  • If all else fails, work to convene a Constitutional Convention, understanding that once convened all parts of the Constitution are up for change, not just the part you're interested in changing
  • Although I am not in favor of arbitrary term limits -- elections being the easiest and currently available mechanism to limit the term of any elected official -- it may well come to that even though it would mean "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

Note that none of the above are easy paths.... WE the People actually have to get off our arses and (in the paraphrased words of Ghandi) "Be the change we hope to see."

jame's let us look closer at your suggested actions (not even going to discuss who 'we the people' originally meant')


  1. let's see now, this august gaggle of forum members can't even 'agree' on the commonality of one straightforward concept of carrying a handgun in their individual communities let alone in their state or across this country w/o breaking down into insults! yet, you truly believe 360M plus citizens, (first it needs to be decided who are the citizens to participate in voting process, etc.) could agree on jack squat to make changes 'they' wish enacted.
  2. NC's and other state legislature's have done exactly that and it is illegal as it is called gerrymandering! tho, i do agree, reverse the concept of corps are considered citizens and can give unlimited $$$$.
  3. see 1. above paying careful attention to the concept mentioned regarding 360M citizens participating in the process and who 'we the people' is going to play in your convention scheme.
  4. well james, hummm...term limits...how bout you consider the concept of Donald in office for 8 years or better yet...how's the Governor of VA being in office for 10 years sound? there are some 'we the people' who like both of these individuals governing abilities?

please james, work out who 'YOU' believe 'we the people' currently encompasses, (gays, ethnicity, religious backgrounds, felons, ad nauseam) then present the complete package of changes this group of 'we the people' want(s); and then let's talk about having a national referendum to discuss and AGREE on said changes 'we the people' want to see enacted.
 

MamaLiberty

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Messages
894
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The individual is the base of legitimate authority. Individuals can work together in any numbers, voluntarily. Voluntary association of self owners is the only basis for a free and prosperous society.

When some people are given power over others, against their will, tyranny is the inevitable result.
 

utbagpiper

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Messages
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The individual is the base of legitimate authority. Individuals can work together in any numbers, voluntarily. Voluntary association of self owners is the only basis for a free and prosperous society.

When some people are given power over others, against their will, tyranny is the inevitable result.

Governments are organized to protect rights. Anarchists (by whatever name) have utterly failed to produce any functioning society with either significant diversity or with the ability to defend itself from outside aggression.

One may successfully imagine himself a lone island while living in relative isolation in the vast openness of the great West. But it simply isn't possible to defend yourself reliably against organized outside aggression in such isolation. Nor, can this (anti-) social model be shown to function in high density urban areas as are necessary to provide modern manufacturing facilities.
 

utbagpiper

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I didn't "quit" - I never started. Spooner explains it far better than I could.
...

Inasmuch as the Constitution was never signed, nor agreed to, by anybody, as a contract, and therefore never bound anybody, and is now binding upon nobody; and is, moreover, such an one as no people can ever hereafter be expected to consent to, except as they may be forced to do so at the point of the bayonet, it is perhaps of no importance what its true legal meaning, as a contract, is. .....

Spooner had some good philosophies, including abolition and the right for a State to secede. But his underlying premise is fundamentally flawed.

Spooner starts from the flawed, anarchist position that governments are inherently illegitimate. Some here like to argue the same point less honestly based on who was or wasn't part of the body politic ("We the People") when it was adopted. Either argument is flawed because of the flawed presumption that governments are illegitimate, that the individual is the highest authority.

There are several ways to attack this ego-centric view. Other societies argue very forcefully that family is the highest authority. Some argue that society/government itself is. Let me show two paths to middle ground that recognizes the importance of the individual, but tempers the absolutist ego-centric view with obligations:

Religiously, Christian point out we are not our own but have been purchased with the blood of Christ. Alternatively, many religious traditions point to man being created by a higher power and thus accountable to him.

Sociologically and evolutionarily, it is self evident that no man comes into existence of his own accord. And no man, left to his own devices as an infant or toddler would survive to become a man who thinks himself the epitome of all authority. Parents conceive a child. Mothers give birth. Someone must nurture if there is to be survival much beyond birth. Someone providing education is what allows any of us to be more than mere animals with opposable thumbs. Only a thief or a liar would not admit to some obligation to the individuals and society that provided life itself and then the necessities and luxuries of life.

So, whether to God, parents, or society, I believe the honest man has a debt to pay for his mere existence. What is that debt?

I argue that in addition to living a peaceable, productive life and doing for the next generation as was done for him, this debt also includes accepting the legitimacy of society/government to impose certain rules of conduct intended to provide the continuance of the very society that was successful enough to allow the man to come into existence in the first place. As each generation grows and matures, it has the right and responsibility to propagate to the next those rules that continue to provide value, while altering those rules shown to not provide on going value.

The legitimacy of our federal and State Constitutions comes not just in their adoption process generations ago, but also in their explicit allowance for the current body politic to alter and amend them as they see fit. The legitimacy is proven with nearly 300 years of mostly success and generally decent progress toward respecting individual rights while maintaining a functioning, diverse society generally capable of defending its citizens from outside aggression and interior riots.

In real life, perfection is not possible and so cannot be the (impossible) standard against which we justly judge any social order. Show me where the grand theories of anarchy (by whatever name including perfectly voluntary government when those who can't get along with anyone claim they would get along with others) have matched our record and I'll take note. Until then, a single flawed premise will throw an entire argument out the window. Spooner and other anarchists start with the grossly flawed premise of the individual as the highest authority.

I trust no one who encourages others to read vast volumes, or who posts many paragraphs from long dead philosophers, will dare complain about anyone being "too verbose" in expressing in his own words, views as to where the individual stands in relation to other entities in society.
 

countryclubjoe

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Governments are organized to protect rights. Anarchists (by whatever name) have utterly failed to produce any functioning society with either significant diversity or with the ability to defend itself from outside aggression.

One may successfully imagine himself a lone island while living in relative isolation in the vast openness of the great West. But it simply isn't possible to defend yourself reliably against organized outside aggression in such isolation. Nor, can this (anti-) social model be shown to function in high density urban areas as are necessary to provide modern manufacturing facilities.

If any man's money can be taken by a so-called government, without his own personal consent, all his other rights are taken with it, for with his money the government can, and will, hire solders to stand over him,compel him to support to its arbitrary will, and kill him if he resist..
No man can rightfully be required to join, or support, an association whose protection he does not desire. ( Lysander Spooner).. I concur.

CCJ
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
Governments are organized to protect rights. Anarchists (by whatever name) have utterly failed to produce any functioning society with either significant diversity or with the ability to defend itself from outside aggression.

One may successfully imagine himself a lone island while living in relative isolation in the vast openness of the great West. But it simply isn't possible to defend yourself reliably against organized outside aggression in such isolation. Nor, can this (anti-) social model be shown to function in high density urban areas as are necessary to provide modern manufacturing facilities.

Phfffft. Somebody should tell government. Let's start with the government that decreed during the American Civil War that fractional reserve bankers (sic for fraudsters*) must keep a certain amount of government debt on their books as assets.

This just made it easy for the government to go into debt--"hey, the banksters have to loan us money if we require they buy government bonds to a certain level of their assets".

Now, gee. I wonder if there is somehow a remote connection between that (1864?) law and $19T of on-books fedogv debt today?

Nawwwww. Couldn't be. Governments are organized to protect rights.

/sarcasm



*We've all heard the elementary school story. Timmy deposits the $10 grandma gave him for his birthday. The bank keeps $1, and loans out nine. Remember the pretty phrase? "The bank puts Timmy's money to work in the community." Uh-huh. My teachers told me substantially the same story. But, they left something out. Somehow, my teachers left out the fact that fractional reserve banks commit fraud daily. Whoa!! Stong language, Citizen!! Not really. One sentence clarified it for me: in any other business in the world, if I give two different people title to the same one piece of property, I go to jail for fraud. Government and banksters have crafted a very sophisticated rationalization to fog up the fraud accusation. (Government is good at explanations that fog things up so you can't be certain, aren't they?) Back in the early 1800's in this country, the courts decreed--out of thin air--that when you deposit money in a bank, it ain't your money no more. It is the bank. And, you are a creditor of the bank. Yep, when you open an account, all that fine print about being able to withdraw money subject to the bank's rules, really boils down to "it ain't your money, its ours". Except...why is it a deposit, instead of an investment? And, why is it a withdrawal, instead of an account reduction or transfer of assets?
 
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utbagpiper

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Phfffft. Somebody should tell government.

One can endlessly pick nits about the shortcomings of any institution that has actually existed for a few hundred years, or even a few millennia in various forms.

Proffering something that will work better is a much more difficult thing to do.

But when one is unable to discuss the thesis at hand, he will often look to divert to some trifling tangential issue.

How about instead of dealing with the countless peripheral issues, we instead delve to the foundation of the anarchistic philosophy: Self Ownership.

Perhaps in your own words you'd care to make a case for self-ownership as the highest principle of society, consistent, of course, with your much beloved natural law.

Your ball, Citizen.
 

Citizen

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Governments are organized to protect rights. Anarchists (by whatever name) have utterly failed to produce any functioning society with either significant diversity or with the ability to defend itself from outside aggression.

One may successfully imagine himself a lone island while living in relative isolation in the vast openness of the great West. But it simply isn't possible to defend yourself reliably against organized outside aggression in such isolation. Nor, can this (anti-) social model be shown to function in high density urban areas as are necessary to provide modern manufacturing facilities.

Somebody should tell government. I don't think they know.

Lets look at qualified immunity. You know. When a cop violates somebody's rights, the victim...err...plaintiff has to pierce the officer's qualified immunity. It is based on the idea of sovereign immunity: the king, being the fount of political power, is immune. Except, government knows better than to leave that argument open to attack. So, they fog it up with the term qualified immunity.

The victim has to overcome the cop's qualified immunity. Sounds oh-so rational. Until you think about it.

It totally up-ends the foundations of the republic.

Huh? Yeah. Watch this.

Under the current law of qualified immunity, a victim of police has to show that there was a clearly established law against what the police did to him.

Do you see the absurdity?

Under the foundational doctrine we've all had drilled into us, government only has the power delegated to it by we the people. Yet, the unavoidable implication of qualified immunity is that cops have any power they want as long as there is no law against it. Under qualified immunity doctrine, we the people have to beg and supplicate the courts and legislature to make laws against police victimizing us...instead of police only having the powers delegated. There is no reason we should have to supplicate government to clearly establish a law against a certain police action. According to the very foundations of the republic, if it wasn't delegated to the cop to do it, he ain't go the authority to do it to the suspect.

Somehow, the very organized and thoroughly rationalized doctrine of qualified immunity does not strike me as "organized to protect rights".
 
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countryclubjoe

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Qualified Immunity seems like some fancy government term( doctrine) and applies that government officials are free to violate rights with no redress however that is not always the end result.

Study the following cases--

Bivens v Six Unknown Named Agents (1971)

Harlow v Fitzgerald (1982)

Saucier V Katz ( 2001)

Pearson V Callahan-- Over ruled Saucier

Qualified Immunity is a doctrine created by the Supreme Court to attempt to shield government official from frivolous litigations however cases with merit in which government agents are clearly and KNOWINGLY in violation of a citizens rights will be litigated and won..

Interesting to note that the court articulated that said government official MUST be fully aware that said official is in violation of a right..
In other words said official must not be fully aware that if he/she shots and kills an unarmed citizen, that said killing was not a rights violation.. Really, you can't make this up.. However U.S.C title 42 @ 1983 is still a strong redress against qualified immunity..

The constitution is still the supreme law of the land, QI like UNREASONABLENESS test can still be defeated.

My .02
CCJ
 
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countryclubjoe

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Somebody should tell government. I don't think they know.

Lets look at qualified immunity. You know. When a cop violates somebody's rights, the victim...err...plaintiff has to pierce the officer's qualified immunity. It is based on the idea of sovereign immunity: the king, being the fount of political power, is immune. Except, government knows better than to leave that argument open to attack. So, they fog it up with the term qualified immunity.

The victim has to overcome the cop's qualified immunity. Sounds oh-so rational. Until you think about it.

It totally up-ends the foundations of the republic.

Huh? Yeah. Watch this.

Under the current law of qualified immunity, a victim of police has to show that there was a clearly established law against what the police did to him.

Do you see the absurdity?

Under the foundational doctrine we've all had drilled into us, government only has the power delegated to it by we the people. Yet, the unavoidable implication of qualified immunity is that cops have any power they want as long as there is no law against it. Under qualified immunity doctrine, we the people have to beg and supplicate the courts and legislature to make laws against police victimizing us...instead of police only having the powers delegated. There is no reason we should have to supplicate government to clearly establish a law against a certain police action. According to the very foundations of the republic, if it wasn't delegated to the cop to do it, he ain't go the authority to do it to the suspect.

Somehow, the very organized and thoroughly rationalized doctrine of qualified immunity does not strike me as "organized to protect rights".

Citizen, what you expound today in 21st century America is true.. Spooner in 19th century America said the same thing with different words.
Please allow me to quote Mr.Spooner hence we shall all have a clearly picture of what you espouse today.

" If the jury have no right to judge of the justice of a law of the government, they plainly can do nothing to protect the people against the oppressions of the government, for there are no oppressions which the government may not authorize by law"..

While Spooner probably never heard of the term qualified immunity, clearly what he expounded in the 19th century would clearly be an argument AGAINST said qualified immunity for corrupt government officials in 21st century America..

My .02
CCJ
 

utbagpiper

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Lets look at qualified immunity. ...

Actually, rather than thrashing about at the leaves, let's get right to trunk and roots of the matter.

Let's discuss your claims of "self ownership."

Please, expound to us, from first principles, where the anarchist claims of "self ownership" derive. On what natural law basis do you claim "self ownership"?

Citizen, I look forward to an enlightening discussion of basic principles from one most able to defend the anarchist point of view. I trust you will clean the floor with me given your superior knowledge of these principles, but it is a risk I must take if I wish to learn basic principles.

Thank you.
 
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