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During public active shooting events what rights do citizens have?

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
K, youtube is showing their employees walking out with hands up or on their hands and reports the nice LEs searched them.

If you don't what would be the legal ramifications if an employee, note I said Legal not employer, for not putting my hands up or agreeing to a search?

Not that i would exhibit contrary behaviour to the nice LEs contingency, no not me per se., but what are any citizen's rights if in such a scenario and judicial issues?

Thought, would it be considered an 'emergency' declaration of police powers?

BTW, won't complicate it by being armed w/so much as a pocket knife or my trusty sidearm?
 

Wstar425

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
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570
Location
Tomahawk and Abbotsford, Wi.
I don’t know about all the legal ramifications, but I would say if you just happened to be at a place where a mass shooting happened, while armed, and you were no way involved. Other side of building, whatever. You’d probably be lucky to survive the exit walk and search. I bet it would be a painful experience, at the least.

Being most happen in GFZs, maybe there’s not a lot of possibilities for that to happen to a legal carrier?
 

color of law

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Oct 7, 2007
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Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Well, it all depends. Generally speaking, no. The Fourth Amendment plays into it big time. The Fourth Amendment prohibits "unreasonable searches and seizures."
Without a description of the perpetrator the police cannot just start searching everybody. "In justifying the particular search the police officer must be able to point to specific and articulable facts which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant the search. In other words, reasonable suspicion must be based on "specific and articulable facts" and not merely upon an officer's hunch. This permitted police action has subsequently been referred to as a "stop and frisk," or simply a "Terry frisk".

But, if they violate your rights and don't arrest you what are you going to do about it? Not much.
 

hammer6

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2008
Messages
1,461
Location
Florida
K, youtube is showing their employees walking out with hands up or on their hands and reports the nice LEs searched them.

If you don't what would be the legal ramifications if an employee, note I said Legal not employer, for not putting my hands up or agreeing to a search?

Not that i would exhibit contrary behaviour to the nice LEs contingency, no not me per se., but what are any citizen's rights if in such a scenario and judicial issues?

Thought, would it be considered an 'emergency' declaration of police powers?

BTW, won't complicate it by being armed w/so much as a pocket knife or my trusty sidearm?

Was honestly thinking about this today watching that video.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Well, it all depends. Generally speaking, no. The Fourth Amendment plays into it big time. The Fourth Amendment prohibits "unreasonable searches and seizures."
Without a description of the perpetrator the police cannot just start searching everybody. "In justifying the particular search the police officer must be able to point to specific and articulable facts which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant the search. In other words, reasonable suspicion must be based on "specific and articulable facts" and not merely upon an officer's hunch. This permitted police action has subsequently been referred to as a "stop and frisk," or simply a "Terry frisk".

But, if they violate your rights and don't arrest you what are you going to do about it? Not much.

If they violate your rights, you can always sue. Several cities here in Colorado found out the hard way that no, cops cannot violate the civil rights of law-abiding carriers without subjecting their employing municipalities to some rather stiff fines.

Those violations, however, did not occur in the presence of a mass shooting. They were stand-alone events where the cops were abusing their authority.

Color of law, you touched on it. In a mass shooting situation, one has to ascertain what constitutes a "reasonable search and seizure."

SCENARIO 1: Four people are in a locked room. The lights go out. There's a bang. The lights come on and the remaining three people see the fourth, shot dead, lying on the floor. One of them calls 911. All three are sequestered. The room is void of a weapon and there's no place to hide it. Two consent to a search and are found void of any weapons. The third person refuses to be searched.

In this case, it is reasonable to assume the third person is armed. He is force-searched and found to have the smoking gun, tries to get it thrown out due to 4th Amendment violation.

Given the circumstances, the judge would be well within his rights to deny the fourth's claim.

SCENARIO 2: Same as scenario 1, but only one consents to a search. Now we have two people who are force-searched.

Was it reasonable to force-search them both knowing that the odds were 50-50 that one of them was the perpetrator?

SCENARIO 3: Same as scenario 1, but there's thirty people in the room and half refuse to be searched. Are the police justified in searching all 15 of them? Remember, it's a closed room, so they know at least one of them is the culprit.

SCENARIO 4: Same as scenario 3, but the room isn't locked, meaning someone could have slipped out just as someone could have slipped in after hearing the bang, while the lights were out.

You see where I'm going with this...

SCENARIO 5: Two suspects set off a bomb during a marathon in a major U.S. city. The mayor essentially declares martial law and orders door-to-door searches. Many people could have come and gone and there's no hard evidence that the perpetrators are even in the area.

I think it's a judgement call, but here's how I'd call it:

5: Unreasonable and a ridiculous violation of the 4th Amendment
4. Unreasonable as you have not determined who has come and gone
3. Unreasonable. At what point, how many people, do you consider it "reasonable?" 1? 3? 15? What about Walt Disney World Magic Kingdom, which averages roughly 50k visitors per day? Are they doing to lawfully search all 52,964?
2. Unreasonable! Whether it's 15 potential suspects or just 2, the situation simply does not meet the requirements for our 4th Amendment: "...no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Whether 2 people or 50,000, they do not know. They're just guessing.
1. Reasonable. This is the only situation where law enforcement can logically determine who has the weapon.

Corollary: A guy wearing a mask, black jacket, and jeans shoots a store owner and is observed by law enforcement to run around the corner. Law enforcement loses sight of him but gives chase and as they round the corner, they spot a man wearing a black jacket and jeans sitting on some steps half a block away. They arrest him and forcibly search him.

Is this legal? Or did they just violate his rights?

Actually, they violated his rights. They can make contact, and if something comes to light during the contact that gives them reasonable articulable suspicion that this is the same guy, then they can arrest him, search him, Mirandize him, and bring him downtown for questions. But with no more defining characteristics than a black jacket and jeans, quite common in the neighborhood...
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Ask the folks in the Aurora (CO) Constitution Suspension Event. The courts tossed their civil suits, if I recall correctly.

In other words, you have no rights what-so-ever.
 

echofiveniner

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Messages
49
Location
Texas
It seems like a no win situation. I'd imagine if they searched you and you're arrested you'd have an argument. Let's say Doo-Dads are illegal and you are in a situation with a mass shooter. You walk out, get searched and they find the Doo Dad, is that evidence? Did you consent to the search? It seems like a big legal mess.
 
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