King County Experiences

Doc Blase · Aug 3, 2006

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I also live in the Puget Sound area. I think it's a good thing to remember that Malls are private property, so the visitors to that private property do so at the owners' pleasure.

The "Simon" malls, of which the Northgate andTacoma Mallsare a part, prohibit weapons, concealed or overt.

Although I completely support OC and CC, I think it's reasonable that visitors to my house (or business) have an obligation todo so according to my rules, and I think themalls alsohave the same rights.

sandy · Aug 7, 2006

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Doc Blase wrote:

I also live in the Puget Sound area. I think it's a good thing to remember that Malls are private property, so the visitors to that private property do so at the owners' pleasure.

True. Any privateproperty owner has the right to ask me to follow their rules, or to leave. Since I generally won't follow their rules if they attempt to prohibit OC, I would opt to leave.

Note that the security officers in Bellevue Square Mall never asked me to leave, and they never once used any form of "or else we'll ask you to leave" wording. They requested that I conceal, and I declined. The police similarly advised that I conceal, but did not order.

The police were out of line for their indirect intimidation. The mall security was out of line for harassing me without being willing to ask me to leave, but I don't fault them for wanting to follow me around. Either way, I will continue shopping at that mall until they ask me to leave and not come back.

--Sandy (WA)

sandy · Aug 13, 2006

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Seattle Center

This was the first time thatI decided toOC in a very public part of downtown Seattle.

I went to Seattle Center today with my family and some friends who also had kids. We went to the Children's Museum in Center House, ate at the food court, played in the huge fountain, and returned to the Center House food court for snacks before we left.

There were lots of people who noticed and reacted a little, but few commented. One man in the museum asked about the caliber (.40), and shared a story about his trip to a local range. He doesn't shoot much, but was interested and friendly. I had been talking to his wife for a while (about our kids playing together) when he came over, and she hadn't noticed yet. She was taken aback and asked why I would have something like that in a nice place like the museum. That was a nice opportunity to share my simple reasons, and to prompt my two-year-old to tell them "Daddyhas a gun to keep me safe from bad guys and monsters." (I can't yet get her to leave that monsters bit out.)

We spent about an hour in the fountain, and manypeople noticed there as well. I was playing with my kids, so I don't think anyone was too concerned about me.

In the food court, an employee clearing the table asked if I was a police officer. He was surprised to learn that it was legal, and that no permit was required. He said "What about gun free zones and stuff like that? Isn't this a gun safe zone?" It's people like this that benefit the most from seeing me out and about. He wasforward enough to ask, and open minded enough that it looked like he was learning as I answered. I wouldn't be surprised if he followed up with his supervisor later where he'll probably get a different answer. I wonder if he'll find the truth for himself.

Police walked by twice on routine patrol, and I don't think they saw me. That's all. No problems.

--Sandy(WA)

Gray Peterson · Aug 15, 2006

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Sandy,

<b>
In the food court, an employee clearing the table asked if I was a police officer. He was surprised to learn that it was legal, and that no permit was required. He said "What about gun free zones and stuff like that? Isn't this a gun safe zone?" It's people like this that benefit the most from seeing me out and about. He wasforward enough to ask, and open minded enough that it looked like he was learning as I answered. I wouldn't be surprised if he followed up with his supervisor later where he'll probably get a different answer. I wonder if he'll find the truth for himself.</b>

Actually she is technically correct. Seattle Center, as a City-owned convention center, CAN require you to have a CPL in order to be able to carry a pistol, under RCW 9.41.300(2).

(2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:

(a) Restricting the discharge of firearms in any portion of their respective jurisdictions where there is a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals, or property will be jeopardized. Such laws and ordinances shall not abridge the right of the individual guaranteed by Article I, section 24 of the state Constitution to bear arms in defense of self or others; and

(b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, except that such restrictions shall not apply to:

(i) Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070 or exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060; or

(ii) Any showing, demonstration, or lecture involving the exhibition of firearms.

Just keep this in mind and have your CPL in Seattle Center.

sandy · Aug 17, 2006

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Lonnie Wilson wrote:

(2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:

<snip>

Just keep this in mind and have your CPL in Seattle Center.

(As you may recall, I keep that and other firearms-related RCWs in my wallet in case I need it)

I agree that Seattle CAN make such laws, and if they did I would need my CPL to open carry in the convention center. However I am not aware of such a law prohibiting firearms in Center House. I believe it would have to be apublic law/ordinance, and not just a "companypolicy." Are you aware of such a law or ordinance?

Clearly carrying my CPL is the safe thing to do. It's always in my wallet because, among other things, I drive a lot and don't want to have to unload. But I would be surprised to learn that it was legally required toOC in Center House.

--Sandy (WA)

Gray Peterson · Aug 17, 2006

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The city owns Seattle Center and Center House, and therefor have the right under RCW 9.41.300 to require you to be a licensed CPL holder under their ordinance covering their convention center property. You can make the choice whether to conceal or openly carry your handgun.

44Brent · Sep 17, 2006

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Today I carried in the following places:

Sam's Club in Renton.
Walmart in Renton.
J.C. Penney at the mall in Bellevue.

No problems whatsoever.

Gray Peterson · Sep 17, 2006

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Seattle Center Campus Rules

Seattle Center can require under RCW 9.41.300 that you have a CPL to carry, as they are part of the City of Seattle.

sandy · Sep 18, 2006

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Lonnie Wilson wrote:

Seattle Center Campus Rules

Seattle Center can require under RCW 9.41.300 that you have a CPL to carry, as they are part of the City of Seattle.

Excellent. I'm glad to see that they word their prohibition correctly, and explicitly exempt those with a CPL from the prohibition on possession. I'll carry that set of rules with me the next time I OC at Seattle Center.

Pushing further, however... The city may only prohibit "possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center." I suspect that the definition of Convention Center may not include all of Seattle Center. Certainlyit could include many of the buildings, but the park area outside may in fact be a legal area for OC without a CPL. I'm not in the mood to test that since Ialways carry my CPL, but it's an area where perhaps a court case could advance our cause.

--Sandy (WA)

2PAK · Sep 19, 2006

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Sandy,

I know I'm in the minority here but I'll say it anyway: Its poor judgement on your part to open carry at the Bellevue Sq. mall or other similar places. Frankly, in cities likeSeattle or Bellevue, it defies logic to evenOC knowing the drama its going to cause you and yourfamily while doing it. We can debate it here endlessly but, it wont change the minds of people who demand OC vs. those who carry concealed.

As some point down the road, you going to create some kind of drama which you're going to regret. Your parents have a point and you might want to listening to them on this issue rather than cutting off your nose to spite your face. Good luck.

sandy · Sep 19, 2006

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2PAK wrote:

Frankly, in cities likeSeattle or Bellevue, it defies logic to evenOC knowing the drama its going to cause you and yourfamily while doing it.

And you are demonstrating why it is important that I continue. If peacefully carrying a holstered pistol causes drama, I will do my part to try to fix that problem.

Long ago in this country, the right to bear arms was fully accepted by the majority of the public.Back then it was OK to regulate concealed carry because only criminals would carry concealed, and there were no reasons not to open carry. Most honest people carried openly, and the few who wished to carry concealed could get a permit. This made sense at the time.

Now, hundreds of years later, carrying concealed is the expected norm for honest people, and there are strong social pressures not to open carry. In light of this, it is wrong to regulate concealed carry. Either the accepted norm has changed, and concealed carry can no longer be subject to regulation, or the law won't change, and we need to make sure OC remains a recognized option for honest people. Either way, I believe OC leads to better things. Wheneverpeople argue that only CC makes sense, I answer that it must therefore be possible without a permit. Until that happens, I will OC whenever I can.

--Sandy (WA)

[suB]PS - Please watch your tone. Your post rang like a very personal attack to me, and I took offense at first. This is your first post, so I don't know what to think of you. Perhaps you're a troll or an antior just a jerk. I wrote my response assuming that you wouldn't want me to take offense at your words, and that it just came out a little more harshly than you would like. Only time will tell if I read that right.[/suB]

44Brent · Sep 19, 2006

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Sandy:

I appreciate your willingness to do what is legal, and ignore the naysayers. I'm sure lots of people told Rosa Parks she should have shut up and gone to the back of the bus.

Anyone who has read Lonnie Wilson's analysis of Washington law can clearly see that open carry IS legal.

sandy · Sep 19, 2006

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44Brent wrote:

Today I carried in the following places:

Sam's Club in Renton.

Walmart in Renton.

J.C. Penney at the mall in Bellevue.

No problems whatsoever.

That's great that you went to the J.C. Penney in Bellevue Square Mall. Most of my visits to the mall take me in there as well, and I've never had the slightest problem with them (despite the bad reaction from mall security). Perhaps I'll see you there sometime.

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in all of King County who open carries in populated areas. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

--Sandy (WA)

2PAK · Sep 19, 2006

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Sandy,

Dont be so denfensive and condescending. It's my opinion and I am speaking my mind here that's all. If you dont like me tone (read: my opinion) too bad. Not everyone is going to always agree with you or where/how you OC.

Long ago is not today. Let's use our head when, how and where we OC. You seem to have an axe to grind.

Gray Peterson · Sep 19, 2006

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2PAK,

You're in the wrong place to lecture people on Open Carry. You may have a right to have and express an opinion against open carry in public.

However, you do not have the right to express it on a board that is FOR the right to open carry. It's antagonistic. I'm not a moderator or the owners of this board, however I'm sure this opinion is shared by them.

FYI, when I say "don't have a right to express it on this board", what I mean is that this is a private board, not government, and the moderators and owners have the right to put down restrictions on content and control behavior expressed on this board.

2PAK · Sep 19, 2006

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Well Sandy,

The moderators can do whatthey wish.Any good board will allow us to disagree but, you dont want that. Perhaps you believe we should all applaud when you OC everytime you OC. I think not. There is a time and place in order to move the ball downfield towards the final goal andyou havent learned that strategy.I suspect I'll be reading about you in the Seattle Times soon.

To set the record straight, I am for using commonsense in open carry and I dont believe youhave used it based on what you say here in the forum. You seem bent on flaming me because I called you on it (OC carry in a crowded very large mall in Bellevue).

If the moderators want to kick me off the board because of my opinion, they can. I'm just trying to offer some common sense in OC.

Zack · Sep 19, 2006

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2PAK wrote:

Well Sandy,

The moderators can do what they wish....

Uh dude, Lonnie wrote that, not Sandy. And while pragmatically speaking (and when I say that, I mean explicitly short-term) you may have a point on OCing in a crowded place in King County, Sandy is doing it for a politically tactical reason, not because he was trying to avoid hassle of drawing from concealment. He's not an idiot. I don't know him personally, but he strikes me as a guy of ideals. I might be able to appreciate your perspective on the short term, but in the long term it leaves us defenseless.

Zack

2PAK · Sep 19, 2006

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Zack,

Yes, you are correct, I did get the two posters mixed up in my reponse. My mistake.

Dude

norahc · Sep 19, 2006

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2PAK wrote:

To set the record straight, I am for using commonsense in open carry

Seems like I've heard that phrase before...

Oh yeah, Sarah Brady said something similar about gun control.

Cue-Ball · Sep 22, 2006

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2PAK wrote:

To set the record straight, I am for using commonsense in open carry and I dont believe youhave used it based on what you say here in the forum. You seem bent on flaming me because I called you on it (OC carry in a crowded very large mall in Bellevue).

I'm curious as to what the rules of "common sense" are for open carry, where you're concerned. When is it appropriate and when is it not, and why? What makes Bellevue Square a less appropriate place to OC than my local grocery store or the gun shop down the street?

I'm not trying to start a feud here, just curious as to your position. Personally, I would like to see open carry legal and practiced EVERYWHERE. No exemptions for schools, transportation, etc. Frankly, I don't see any reason why open carry would be a "bad idea" simply because there are people around.

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