Open Carry in a Bank

jimwyant · Aug 3, 2006

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SicSemper: I'm with you on both posts. One's privately owned conveyance is an extention of one's home, and should be recognized as such by the law, meaning that no one should have the right to restrict anyone from keeping any lawful item inside. I also agree with you on the property rights question. One should have the right, as a private business owner, to make and enforce any rules they see fit in regards to how the business is operated, right down to who can enter their place of business and with what. If someone wants to create a "criminal-safe zone" by banning all weapons inside their business, they should have the right to do so. I always have the right to do business elsewhere. In fact, I feel that if one wanted, they should be able to refuse entry to anyone outside of a particular height, weight, hair color, etc. To do so would be at least as stupid as banning guns, if not more so, but we live in America and folks should have the right to be morons if they wish.

Thanks for the insight on the banking mindset and procedures. What you said made a lot of sense. For the record, if I'm in a bank (armed, of course, otherwise I wouldn't be there), unless someone pointed a weapon at me or started shooting people, I would do my best Sgt. Schultz impression: "I see nothing..."

Which bank do you work for? I always cringe whenever I OC into my local branch, half expecting them to ask me to take my weapon outside, which would result in the immediate and very inconvenient closure of my accounts. It would be nice to do business with one that has a known gun-friendly policy.

BTW, welcome to OCDO!

VApatriot · Aug 3, 2006

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SicSemperTyrannis,

You make a really good point, and I think that I will take the word of someone who actually knows what he is talking about.

BTW, I really like the name! Thus always to tyrants!

Smurfologist · Aug 3, 2006

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SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

As I teach Robbery prevention and response for a bank (among other things), I have to comment on some of the things Smurfologist said in his post.

1.)Extremely fewbanks in Virginia have an armed guard, much less "two". Less than 5% of Virginia banks employ guards of any sort, mostly in urban areas, and most of those are not armed. Still, they tend to serve as a deterrant b/c "bad guys" usually don't know they aren't armed. Their main role tends to be in urban areas, where they keep homeless people out of banks (which are especially attractive because of the air conditioning, large lobby with seats, etc), etc.

2.) It most certainly does not "boil down to money". The average bank robber gets less than $3,000. Insurance pays every single penny stolen -or even lost through fraud. The financial instituion I work for has no problem with customers concealed or open carrying - and we have customers who do - although we'd fire any employee immediately with any weapon, even in their car.

3.) Smurfologist is "sure" the average bank robber will have "more than a .38". However, 80% of bank robbers neither havea weapon nor claim to have one (FBI stats), and of those who say they have a weapon (the remaining 20%), the weapon is only seen (and thus confirmed) slightly less than half of those times. The overwhelming majority of bank robberies (appr. 95%) are "lone bandits" - desperate individuals who patiently wait in line, show the teller a note, attract little attention, and then walk out of the bank with a relatively small amount of money.

4.) Everything we do is designed solely to protect people - why risk anyones safety for the money when it is insured? The only cost to usfrom a robbery would be if someone were to get hurt - that's when we'd be on the news for more than 10 seconds, that's when we'd lose customers, that's when we'd lose money being sued. The $3000 a robber might get before they are arrested is nothing.

5.) I share this only to educate everyone. My bank is fine with law-abiding guncarrying customers - openly or concealed. But please don't say things that aren't true because they sound good to you! Those who rob tend to be desperate - they needs drugs, etc. We want to make sure no one gets hurt. If our goal was to protect money in any way, shape or form, every single one of our bank robbery procedures would be radically different. However, because we could care less about the money (as is true at most banks), are robbery related policies and procedureslook very different than most people understand them to be based on seeing movies, etc. The over-whelming majority of bank robbers are caught and convicted as it is, and people are very, very, very rarely injured in a bank robbery (we've never had a single person injured in over 75 years of existence).

6.) I am as pro-gun (and open carry) as you can get. I am just sharing some facts from a banks perspective. I do think all banks should allow all of their customers to openly or concealed carry. But I don't think anyone should ever pull a gun to stop a "normal" lone bandit robber, especially in a crowded lobby with children, etc. Of course, I feel differently about stopping the extraordinarily rare robbery "gone wrong" - when shots are fired. But that happens onlyonce or twicea YEAR in the entire state of Virginia.

SicSemperTyrannis, your points are well taken, but you totally missed the point I was trying to make. The very first thing that I said was that I could sum up what was said......FDIC. I know that the banks can care less about the money. I also mention that if the US cared about it, then all of the banks that you go to would be like Fort Knox and any Fed Reserve Bank. The point I was making when I said "It's about money" was that it would be inconceivable that every bank would have adequate security to protect the money especially when it is insured. I also was making the point about how people perceive things when they see a "No Guns" sign. Customers might perceive they are safe in a bank if they see an armed guard and a "No Guns" sign at at bank, but, the reality is that may not be the case.

You may have statistics to back up your "vision" of what happens at a "typical" bank robbery, but those statistics went to h**l when the Wachovia in Springfield got robbed (twice inone week). I am certain that more than a note was used in those robberies (just ask the 80 cops that showed up after it happened - I did).

I am not going to debate you at all. I will just say that I never suggested that anyone make any attempts to be heroic when a bank robbery is taking place. Since you put out there what you do for a living, I will throw out there a tidbit of what I do. I have been an Armed Security Officer (among other things) for over 16 years protecting several government facilities that include credit unions. I do know when it is appropriate to use deadly force and when not to. Obviously, you will need to be concerned about your backstop (Deadly Force 101). Without getting too technical, I will only say that there are a multitude of factors to consider as to when to use deadly force, and, I will leave it at that.

I didn't know I was going to get plastered for commenting about "things" on this board. I don't profess to know everything. Like I said earlier, your points are well taken (I even learned a thing or two). But, I believe that you took the points I was trying to make out of context.:X

2nd Amendment.......Use it........Or, lose it!!!

SicSemperTyrannis · Aug 4, 2006

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Smurfologist: I am almost certain we agree on far more than we disagree about! We both are on this site, after all.To the degree thatI misunderstood your point, please accept my sincere apologies.I just don't want people thinking that most bank robbers have guns, most banks have one or two armed guards, most robbers carry something more powerful than a .38, etc - it's just not true. Of course, you are absolutely right that a "No Guns" signs does not make anyone even a tiny bit safer -a robber wouldn't care about a sign, and no one has anything to fear from the law-abiding gun owner.

Tess · Aug 4, 2006

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Interestingly, my bank has now prohibited cell phones! I can't find, on their door or on their web site, a prohibition against my 9mm, but I can't take my cell phone through the door.

When I asked why, the teller said "security reasons". I decided from the look on her face (huh?) not to pursue that any further.

Unfortunately, the branch I use most often is on Ft Belvoir (FT Belvoir Fed Cr Union), so I'm not armed when I go in.

Smurfologist · Aug 4, 2006

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SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

Smurfologist: I am almost certain we agree on far more than we disagree about! We both are on this site, after all.To the degree thatI misunderstood your point, please accept my sincere apologies.I just don't want people thinking that most bank robbers have guns, most banks have one or two armed guards, most robbers carry something more powerful than a .38, etc - it's just not true. Of course, you are absolutely right that a "No Guns" signs does not make anyone even a tiny bit safer -a robber wouldn't care about a sign, and no one has anything to fear from the law-abiding gun owner.

SicSemperTyrannis: I also want to apologize to you (and everyone else) if I led them to believe things that were not true (according to your post). That was not my intention. :?

2nd Amendment.........Use it.........Or, lose it!!!!!!!!!

zoom6zoom · Aug 4, 2006

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Interestingly, my bank has now prohibited cell phones!

Don't they know that the "cell phone bandit" has already been convicted and jailed?

Grapeshot · Aug 6, 2006

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Thank you SicSemperTyrannis for stating so clearly the facts on bank security. My father was a bank officer for years and I recognize the truth when I see it. Wachovia will prosecute anyone carrying in their facilities or at least so I am told by several of their managers. I used to bank with 1st Union before the merger but moved my meager accounts immediately thereafter. This is the only personal, effective statement that we as believers in the 2nd amendment can make. VCDL is working tirelessly to try to change the storage in your vehicle while at work restriction impossed by some employers.
I admit that I have a problem with property rights trumping a specific constitutional right. I already cannot legally carry in some shopping centers, banks, restuarants, shops, roads and government buildings. Each time I stop, I check my data bank for restrictions, look for signs, scan the parking lot and enter the "yellow zone" not entirely in control of the situation - I have invaribly had to give up some of my safety net somewhere along my route. It is my firm belief that no company/firm/shopping mall inviting the public to enter should be able to suspend any of our constitutional rights. How would we react to No Christian or No Black signs on the basis that the retailer was a private company?
Yata hey

Desertdoc · Sep 19, 2006

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This topic has pretty much died, so i thought i would bring it back alive. While stopping in at a local Bank of America i was informed that it was prohibited to have civilians that are legally able to carry firearms do so into their banks. I was then asked to please remove my firearm and to put it in the car. I have written the banks corp. office and am awaiting a answer. I will let you all know if i hear anything back.

SicSemperTyrannis · Sep 19, 2006

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I wouldgo back to the bank and withdraw all of your money and investments. I'd beclear why you are doing so if you do this. Ask to speak to the manager and politely tell them why you are doing so and ask them to pass your comments on. Also, make the manager aware that there are dozens ofdifferent banks and credit unions in Virginia that do not forbid firearms, including several major ones.

VAopencarry · Sep 19, 2006

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I bank at BoA but never go inside so have never run into any firerarm issue. Please let us know what they say. For the record, I do OC at their walk up ATM.

Desertdoc · Sep 19, 2006

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SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

I wouldgo back to the bank and withdraw all of your money and investments. I'd beclear why you are doing so if you do this. Ask to speak to the manager and politely tell them why you are doing so and ask them to pass your comments on. Also, make the manager aware that there are dozens ofdifferent banks and credit unions in Virginia that do not forbid firearms, including several major ones.

The funny thing is that i dont bank there. I bank at Navy Federal were i have never had a problem with OC. I was there just depositing money into my ex-wifes account. Should have told her i couldnt give her money due to her banks policy. lol

livitup · Sep 21, 2006

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My wife and I have a small business with an eqally small business checking account and LOC open at a BB&T branch here in town. We opened it before I decided to press the issue of being armed as much as possible.

As soon as I get some time I'm going to write an actual letter on my company letterhead to somebody at BB&T and let them know they're loosing a business account over their policy. I doubt my single action will have much effect, but several voices become a chorus...

presbyreformed · Sep 22, 2006

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livitup wrote:

My wife and I have a small business with an eqally small business checking account and LOC open at a BB&T branch here in town. We opened it before I decided to press the issue of being armed as much as possible.

As soon as I get some time I'm going to write an actual letter on my company letterhead to somebody at BB&T and let them know they're loosing a business account over their policy. I doubt my single action will have much effect, but several voices become a chorus...

Go right ahead and do that. In another thread I posted about BB&T's policy and their response to my letter. Hopefully if we get enough people to complain and show them the illogical argument they have, they will see the light.

Desertdoc · Sep 22, 2006

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As for Bank of America goes i have been given the run around like you would not believe. I emailed them and they told me to contact the bank manager of the branch i had the issue. When i told them i was looking for the corp. stance on the the issue they told me to still talk to thebranch manager. I have gotten a phone call from the district office which is located here in norfolk and the person told me she did not know of any policy since it had never came up. She did say that she will be emailing someone that should know and getting back to me. I wonder if their main office building has a sign. Maybe i will have to stop in and talk to her face to face and see if she got an answer to the email.

Grapeshot · Sep 22, 2006

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I have been in the Bank of America branch on Broad St. (across the street from the Science Museum in Richmond) on many occasions carrying. I have even used my CWP as a second ID when cashing out a check - I do not have an account there. Further, I have had numerous conversations with their armed, private security officer (He looks like a very squared away ex-military man.) about weapons etc. He knows that I carry. I have never had the first problem. Maybe Bank of America leaves it up to the individual branch manager to determine what they think is best. If so, such a loose policy or actually no corporate policy at all is what is creating the problem you describe.

gsh341 · Sep 23, 2006

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I bank at Wells Fargo and OC on a fairly regular basis (mostly in the summer) and I haven't seen a person scared or offended yet. Even the manager and vault teller are OK with it. (I asked once.)

Arizonatexan · Sep 23, 2006

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I think I posted this story somewhere else - but it's a good one ...

Here in the Arizona town I live in it's OK to carry in every bank except one. That bank has a sign on the door that says "no firearms allowed." Ironically, this is the only bank that has ever been robbed - not once - but three times!

You'd think they'd get the picture - but I guess some folks never get it!

Arizona-Texan

Grapeshot · Sep 24, 2006

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Two major banks (Wachovia & BB&T) in the Richmond area have a "no guns" policy and guess at which banks the majority of robberies seem to occur. You got it! There have even been several robberies in drive-thru lanes and not always the first lane at the window but further out where the money is sent thru a pneumatic pipe! Can you picture that in your mind? :shock:
Unfortunetly, these incidents just seem to further the bank management's perception that guns not people rob banks. Personally I keep my weapon secured so that it will not jump out of it's holster and do something not of my bidding.
Yata hey.

Grapeshot · Sep 24, 2006

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Two major banks (Wachovia & BB&T) in the Richmond area have a "no guns" policy and guess at which banks the majority of robberies seem to occur. You got it! There have even been several robberies in drive-thru lanes and not always the first lane at the window but further out where the money is sent thru a pneumatic pipe! Can you picture that in your mind? :shock:
Unfortunetly, these incidents just seem to further the bank management's perception that guns not people rob banks. Personally I keep my weapon secured so that it will not jump out of it's holster and do something not of my bidding.
Yata hey.

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