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Thread: Senator Allen Introduces Universal Reciprocity Bill

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    Story From The Times Dispatch

    [line]People with permits from one state to carry a concealed firearm would generally be able to exercise that right elsewhere under a bill introduced quietly by Sen. George Allen.

    "The bill would simply require states to recognize each other's concealed-carry permits and licenses, just as they recognize drivers' licenses," Allen, R-Va., said in a statement in the Congressional Record when he introduced the bill May 26.

    In his statement introducing the bill, Allen said it was a companion to one introduced in the House by Reps. Cliff Stearns, R-Fla., and Rick Boucher, D-9th. "The right-to-carry movement has enjoyed great success throughout our nation," Allen said. In Virginia, he said, the murder rate has plunged 40 percent since a right-to-carry law that he signed as governor took effect in 1995.

    There were 8.7 murders per 100,000 Virginia residents in 1994 and 5.2 murders per 100,000 in 2005, according to data from FBI Uniform Crime Reports, Allen's office said Friday.

    The 1995 law was written to make it easier for Virginians to carry concealed weapons. Advocates for gun rights sought it to revoke judges' discretion in awarding the permits.

    Allen said May 26 his bill had 12 co-sponsors, including Sen. Ben Nelson, D-Neb. The other 11 are Republicans.

    Republican Reps. Jo Ann Davis of the 1st District, J. Randy Forbes of the 4th and Virgil H. Goode Jr. of the 5th are among 69 co-sponsors of the House bill.
    [line]A few comments ...

    1) Thank you Senator Allen and Congressman Boucher. Republican or Democrat, great Virginians all!!!!

    2) George Allen in 2008!!!

    3) DC, Chicago & NY City will have a freaking cow

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    I wonder about this. While I am in favor of CC for all law abiding citizens, I think the power to license carriers of firearms should be exercised at the state and not the federal level.

    A better bill would be for congress to use wording similar to the voting rights act to insist that all citizens are allowed to exercise their rights to keep and bear arms as well as to vote.



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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    I am not really sure how I feel about this. Not sure I like the idea of the federal government forcing states to do this. Frankly I do not understand why there isn't already more reciprocity but that's another topic I guess.

    Of course on a personal level, it would be great!! for me and other permit holders.

    Was it federal legislation that made states have reciprocity with driver's licenses?

    Could there be a backlash from 'may issue' states? Could these states not like the reciprocity law and stop issueing CCP's altogether. Then there would be no reciprocity because 'they' do not issue permits.


    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    I kind of have to agree on the issue of "States Rights". I"m not sure that I want this mandated at the federal lever, either. That said, he is my Senator and I support him. He is a friend of RKBA.

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    I am going to have to disagree with those supporters of "states rights" on this one. Let me just state that I do believe that the national government has trampled the powers granted to the states through the constitution and intended by our founding fathers.

    However, the founding fathers felt that the right to keep and bear arms is a necessary right to allow the people the means of defense against a tyrannical government and against others who mean them harm. Therefore they included it within the federal constitution (in the bill of rights) granting the "right of the people," NOT the "right of the state" to keep and bear arms. Because of this I have absolutely no problem with the federal government passing a law that forces ever state to recognize every other states CC permits and our natural (and constitutional) rights.

    ilbob, I have not read the senate version of the bill but I have read the house version. And in it the federal gov't would not be granting any permits, they would just be forcing each state to recognize the other states permits. Exactly like drivers licenses work, the states issue them and the other states are required to recognize them.

    That being said, I still have a problem with the whole permit thing. How does that fall under "shall not be infringed?" But I do believe that expanding the shall-issue states isa must in making a step towards true recognition of the 2nd amendment.

    -TEX1N

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    lets name the states that will file a lawsuit against this if it passes.

    Illinois, New Jersey, New York, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, California, D.C., and Maryland.

    If this actually does make it in to law, I can actually look forward to goingback and visit my family in Illinois and still be able to carry.

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    Tex, Excellent point. I feel better supporting it now
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Might there be a chance that states like IL,NJ ,NY etc will just add to the "off limits"list of locations that forbid lawful carry, making carry permits almost worthless?

    I hate to sound pessimistic, this SOUNDS like a good Bill, but perhaps "the devil is in the details".

    Having said that, such a Bill is surely a logical step in the right direction!

    TrueBrit.

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    TEX1N - Thaks for your input. My concern, as always, is "what strings" are attached. I have not read the bill, yet. I shall do so shortly, though. Thanks again. I do support Sen. Allen. There are some other political issues coming up in Virginia that I will be posting over the next couple of days. In regards to Sen. Allen, John "PBR" Kerry has endorsed, James Webb -a former Secretary ofthe Navyto run against Sen. Allen. We have to keep up with politics, whether we like it or not.

    DoubleR
    "You Can't Legislate Human Behavior"

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Well they could make places off limits but then the elites wouldn't be able to carry either. On the other hand Wisconson and Illinois could do just that since they have no permit system, however they would have to pass a bill and I think there is a good chance that it could get away from the antis.
    On the local politics front, at this point I will crawl through broken glass for if he really pushes this bill. He is also stealing Webbs thunder as a CHP holder. This is good red meat for the troops, and Allen has thrown in with us. I will throw in with him.

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    I am really scratching my head with James Webb entering the political arena, as Democrat at that.

    He has a stellar record in Vietnam as a platoon and company commander, Navy Cross, Silver Star and Bronze Star and a couple of Purple Hearts. Reportedly(National Review) once refused to shake John Kerry's hand!!. Not sure how he decided the Dems had it all figured out.

    He was SecNav when I was in the Corps. I have always had a lot of respect for him, he is man of impeccable character.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    I have not seen the bill, but would it force non-CCstates and D.C. (not a state) to let us carry?

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Looks like it would allow anyone with a permit to carry within the regs (off limits areas, etc)of the state if the state issues permits. If the state doesn't issue at all then the federal schedule of off limits areas kicks in.

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    Does anyone have a link to Senator Allen's Bill? I haven't been able to find it, not even on his website.

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    The entire bill can be found here



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    In Illinois there are no list of off limits places because all places are off limits. My guess is WI is that way as well, since there is no permit there either.

    There are other issues with this bill. It only covers concealed carry. What the heck do you do with your firearm in for instance, a place like NYC where you could carry it concealed, but if you took it off to take a shower you would be subject to a felony charge?


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    VAopencarry wrote:
    I am really scratching my head with James Webb entering the political arena, as Democrat at that.

    He has a stellar record in Vietnam as a platoon and company commander, Navy Cross, Silver Star and Bronze Star and a couple of Purple Hearts. Reportedly(National Review) once refused to shake John Kerry's hand!!. Not sure how he decided the Dems had it all figured out.

    He was SecNav when I was in the Corps. I have always had a lot of respect for him, he is man of impeccable character.
    Whats wrong with decent people being in the democratic party? They need some decent people. Way too many Kennedys, Kerrys, and Clintons right now, and not enough decent, honorable candidates on the national level.

    At a local level, the democratic party is not so bad in many areas of the country. Nothing wrong with fixing things from the inside.

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    He was a Republican that served a couple positions in the Reagan administartion. Just recently went to the Democratic party, I am curious as too why.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Overall, I completely agree that there should be nation wide recognition of CC and I am glad that Senator Allen is concerned about it as well, but what kind of negative impact could this have? Has anyone thought how this might affect VCDL's efforts to make Virginia a Vermont/Alaska style state? If we have no permits in our state, would therebe a way so that we would berecognized as legally CCing in other states?

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    No reason that VA could not make a drivers license or state ID card also a CC license.

    If you are ineligible to CC, you would get a notation on your DL to that effect. Persons whose personal or religious convictions oppose CC could opt to add this notation to their DL/ID.






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    We would have to go in the direction of Alaska. In AK you don’t need a permit to CC or OC but they still issue permits if you want one, mainly for reciprocal reasons with other states (and there are some other advantages for an AK resident to have a permit, like being exempt from the background check when buying a handgun, etc.).

    I believe that this is a big step forward for gun owners and for guns rights. I will agree with VApatriot and ilbob, that there will be some issues that will come with this, but I still believe it is a step in the right directions. We will not get off of the rocky road with one big leap, we must do it one step at a time and accept the bruises and blister that comes from those steps.

    I applaud Senator Allen for pushing this and strongly support him. He is one of the strongest supporters of our 2nd Amendment Rights.

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    ilbob wrote:
    No reason that VA could not make a drivers license or state ID card also a CC license.

    If you are ineligible to CC, you would get a notation on your DL to that effect. Persons whose personal or religious convictions oppose CC could opt to add this notation to their DL/ID.




    It looks like I was a little too slow in my last post! I really like this idea, every law-abiding citizen would automatically become a "permit" holder that would be recognized nationally if Senator Allen's bill becomes law. That sure sounds like it follows "shall not be infringed."

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    Were coming to an end of the nics exemtions here in alaska

    [color="#0000ff"]Special Notice:
    The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has informed the Department of Public Safety that effective June 1, 2006, they will no longer complete National Instant Check System (NICS) checks subsequent to the processing of fingerprint cards for the purposes of obtaining an Alaska Concealed Handgun Permit (ACHP).
    This means that Concealed Handgun Permits issued after June 1, 2006 will contain the notation "NOT NICS EXEMPT", and a permit holder will be required to undergo a NICS background check at the time of any firearm purchase.
    Permits issued prior to June 1, 2006 and indicating "NICS EXEMPT" may still be used in lieu of the permit holder undergoing a NICS check at the time of a firearm purchase, for the life of the permit.
    We have requested that the FBI reconsider this decision; should they do so, we will once again be able to issue "NICS EXEMPT" Alaska Concealed Handgun Permits.
    The Department of Public Safety will not accept the submission of fingerprints for ACHP renewals after June 1, 2006. However, state law still requires a fingerprint based background check prior to the issuance of a new concealed handgun permit.



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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    VApatriot wrote:
    Overall, I completely agree that there should be nation wide recognition of CC and I am glad that Senator Allen is concerned about it as well, but what kind of negative impact could this have? Has anyone thought how this might affect VCDL's efforts to make Virginia a Vermont/Alaska style state? If we have no permits in our state, would therebe a way so that we would berecognized as legally CCing in other states?
    Vermont carry is a good long term goal, and I think permits are a compromise on the 2nd Amendment. However if this was passed into law we could still go for Alaska carry, but this would expand our ability to carry into a lot more states, which I think could help a progun agenda in less gun friendly states. A lot of shall issue states have restrictions worse than the bills restrictions, this would provide an arguement that they should lessen those restrictions. If may issue states start to go for liberalized concealed carry and eventually Alaska carry, maybe in ten years or so the political environment will be ripe for even more deregulation.

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    Senator Allen's form letter response to my email to him:

    Dear Ron:

    Thank you for contacting me regarding S. 3275, the Right to Carry Reciprocity Act. I appreciate your input and value the opportunity to respond.

    On May 26, 2006, I introduced with bi-partisan support S. 3275, the Right to Carry Reciprocity Act. This bill, which currently has 21 cosponsors, would allow any person with a valid State concealed carry permit or license to carry a concealed firearm in any other State subject to the laws of that State. The bill would simply require States to recognize each other’s concealed carry permits and licenses, just as they recognize drivers’ licenses.

    I want to be clear, this legislation will not create a federal licensing system and it does not set federal standards for any current or future State concealed carry statutes. This legislation will not take away one bit of freedom that so many have worked so hard for.

    A unique aspect of this legislation is that it will allow an individual with a valid State permit to carry a concealed firearm in the District of Columbia. Despite the District of Columbia’s ban on firearms, murders with guns continue to be a major problem plaguing our nation’s capital. Thousands of Virginians and Americans travel to Washington, D.C. each year and they have a right to feel safe and to defend themselves should they be assaulted. Other conceal carry reciprocity bills introduced in Congress do not allow this and maintain the status quo of restricting the Second Amendment rights of law abiding Americans.

    The Right-to-Carry movement has enjoyed great success throughout our nation. To cite just one example, the murder rate in my Commonwealth of Virginia, has plunged a dramatic 40 percent since the Right-to-Carry law that I signed as Governor.

    This is common-sense legislation. It recognizes that Congress has affirmed an individual’s right to carry firearms for “protective purposes.”

    Please feel free to contact me again about issues important to you. If you would like to receive an email newsletter about my initiatives to improve America, please sign up on my website (http://allen.senate.gov). It is an honor to serve you in the United States Senate, and I look forward to working with you to make Virginia and America a better place to live, learn, work and raise a family.

    With warm regards, I remain

    Sincerely,
    Senator George Allen




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