View Poll Results: What Level Of Shooter Are You?

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  • Level 1: Don't shoot.

    2 1.16%
  • Level 2: Practice on standard ranges.

    90 52.02%
  • Level 3: Attend training classes.

    44 25.43%
  • Level 4: Match Shooter.

    17 9.83%
  • Level 5: Been in gunfights.

    20 11.56%
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Thread: Are you ready for a gunfight?

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_t...606/index.html

    Interesting article on preparation for using a firearm defensively. It lays out five levels to rate yourself and your training level.

    Level 1: Shooters who don't shoot.
    Level 2: Shooters who practice on standard ranges.
    Level 3: Shooters who attend training classes.
    Level 4: Match Shooters.
    Level 5: Shooters who have been in gunfights.

    There is more detail involved of course but it caused me to reevaluate myself and motivated me to get more training and perhaps start participating in IDPA. I have taken a few classes some NRA and Blackwater and have had a fair amount of training from my days in the Marines. I think that puts me at about 3. However personally I want to be at 4 now.

  2. #2
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    I'd like to get into IDPA, myself.

  3. #3
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    I am involved in IDPA and USPSA and have had additional training, so I rated myself as a 4.

    Bob
    Bob
    It's always a great day. If you don't believe me try missing one.
    NRA, TFA, USCCA, IDPA, 3 Gun

  4. #4
    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    The shooting sport that me and my wife and kids are into is a lot of fun as well. We do Cowboy Mounted Shooting.

    If you think IDPA is fun, try shooting targets at a dead gallop with a horse who isn't too happy about the gunshots. Now THAT is fun

    Anyone in the NE Tennessee/SW Virginia area is welcome to come watch one of our events. We have a practice this Sunday June 11th at Lowland TN and a 2 day match in Bristol TN on June 24 & 25. Directions and our club info is at http://www.TNRidgeRunners.com

    This is me and my horse Shooter at a recent event.

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  5. #5
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    Does using corn cob bullets actually count as shooting?








  6. #6
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    That is entirely too cool, John. I wish I was down that way. Had I known it when the kids (3) were at VA Tech, I'd have taken you up on it.

  7. #7
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    How are the classes at Blackwater? I'm taking my first one from them in August.

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    NytoVa wrote:
    How are the classes at Blackwater? I'm taking my first one from them in August.
    I took the 3 day Basic Pistol course and it really improved my shooting. Did some things I had never done with a pistol before like shooting at steel and running targets. I think they are great and would even take the same course again. Some of the shooters in my class were taking it for the second and third times.

  9. #9
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    Two classes from:
    http://www.guntactics.com/page2.php
    Some IDPA. I gave myself a 3.
    And no, I'm not ready for a gunfight but will give em' hell if need be.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    TaosGlock wrote:
    Two classes from:
    http://www.guntactics.com/page2.php
    Some IDPA. I gave myself a 3.
    And no, I'm not ready for a gunfight but will give em' hell if need be.
    I wouldn't say you are unready for a gunfight. I think these levels reflect on how one might perform in combat. A lot depends on mindset, situational awareness, initiative, the tactical situation and equipment. A level 5 shooter armed to the teeth who lets himself fall into condition white could be in a world of hurt in a gunfight. On the other hand Thomas Autry, armed with a boxcutter, prevailed against 5 armed with a shotgun and pistol. If one isn't willing to take a life or has never considered it might be in trouble too.
    It is interesting to consider how many gun owners fall into level 1. They have a box queen they take out once a year or less. Yet they rely on their piece to be ready if and when somebody breaks into their house. Thats scary.

  11. #11
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    well unfortunitly I have been in a "gun fight" and thanks to it I was in court and had to do all that b.s it was ruled justifiable(yes he died) and I also have a nice little pin in my right shine from that ordeal, least he only got me once but now i know my squad car door isnt sutable coverage in my book anymore.

  12. #12
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    ilbob wrote:
    Does using corn cob bullets actually count as shooting?






    Actually, we don't use any projectiles. We use a crimped case full of black powder. When fired, you get a tight burst of hot, burning powder and gas that will pop a balloon up to about 20 feet if aimed properly.

    Probably not the same as IDPA when it comes to accuracy, but a heck of a lot of fun if you are a horse person.

  13. #13
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    murphyslaw wrote:
    well unfortunitly I have been in a "gun fight" and thanks to it I was in court and had to do all that b.s it was ruled justifiable(yes he died) and I also have a nice little pin in my right shine from that ordeal, least he only got me once but now i know my squad car door isnt sutable coverage in my book anymore.
    Glad you are still with us! And glad that you were ruled justified!

    Did the round that hit you in the shin come through the door or under?


    Are you still a LEO or have you moved on?



  14. #14
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    it went threw the door. and yeah im still working the beat. got another 20yrs till im even eligable for retirement but dont plane to till they make me.

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    I qualify with the Army and shoot on ranges on my own. Was in an ambush in Iraq and returned 80 rounds of 5.56 as we laid down supressive fire. Don't know what I hit. The self-defense reaction was pretty fast and it was not hard to shoot back.

    I was a contractor at the time.



    We got thru it safely.



  16. #16
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    army_eod wrote:
    I qualify with the Army and shoot on ranges on my own. Was in an ambush in Iraq and returned 80 rounds of 5.56 as we laid down supressive fire. Don't know what I hit. The self-defense reaction was pretty fast and it was not hard to shoot back.

    I was a contractor at the time.



    We got thru it safely.

    Good job. Glad you made it through in one piece. Spent a year their myself, and believe it or not, I never got to return fire(shot at, rocketed, mortared, and a close call with an IED). Their aim sucked thank God!I was usually stuck commanding the vehicle, but got in the turret every chance I had(I actually felt safer knowing I controlled the fire power). I have no doubt in my mind I would return fire or defend friend, family, and myself or anyone in need without hesitation. The way I have always seen it, it is better them than me. Maybe its the neighborhood I grew up in:?.



    ps; I put myself at level 3. :P

  17. #17
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    Any of you guys that have not tried IDPA should give it ago - it is a blast!

    It is no substitute for real training, but it's a fun way to get a lot of lead down range from different shooting positions and the competition and ticking clock do add a small element of pressure.

    I don't think any of us can say we're ready for a gun fight, but I think it's important for anybody that carries to committ to fight well before hand.

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    I don't agree with the leveling system. Just because someone is a "match shooter" (or even been in a gun fight), doesn't mean they are prepared for such. Many skills used in IPSC* and other sports are great ways to get hurt in a real fight.

    I'm sure many criminals practice as often as they get into real shootings. That may not be very many rounds a year.

    Perhaps the question should be more of: how often do you practice gun fighting skills? Skills such as mental awareness, threat identification, tactics, shooting while drawing and moving, shooting with the weak hand while moving, double taps, emergency drills, reloading with one hand, and so forth.

    *The above does not apply if you are Rob Leatham, who seems to win everything regardless of gun, gear, or rules.


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    cREbralFIX wrote:
    I don't agree with the leveling system. Just because someone is a "match shooter" (or even been in a gun fight), doesn't mean they are prepared for such. Many skills used in IPSC* and other sports are great ways to get hurt in a real fight.
    Additionally, someone could be a match shooter, but have never done #2 or #3. For that matter, someone could have been in a gunfight, but not done any of the first 4.

    *The above does not apply if you are Rob Leatham, who seems to win everything regardless of gun, gear, or rules.
    Slight hijack...I was in a range in Florida once talking about Rob (although I'm not "friends" with him, I do know him). Specifically, I was talking about seeing him shoot against several other shooters in a steel match. Rob was shooting an "iron sight" gun and the other guys were shooting "open sight" guns (optics), yet Rob still won theshootoff. Some guy butts into my conversation and says, "Uh...if he was that good, he'd be the champion." I simply responded with, "Actually, he is." The guy came back with "He's getting pretty old." I said, "He may be, but he still wins matches."
    Caveat: Rob may not be "the" champion, but he's sure won his share of matches.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    I think the writer addresses some of those issues in the article. He doesn't claim it's a perfect system and that the possiblity exists that shooters at all levels can have hidden strengths as well as serious weaknesses.

    "The fact that someone has been in a gunfight and survived doesn't necessarily make him an expert. He might simply have survived through dumb luck. As the old saying goes, "It's better to be lucky than good." Also, the fact that he had this experience doesn't mean he was hardened by it or even that he learned anything from it. But still, beyond question, the people who've "been there, done that," who learned from and were toughened by the process, have an edge over the rest of us when it comes to preparedness."

    "Those folks who pooh-pooh match pressure have never watched another person lose it during a match stage. I have, and the problem in every case was that these were people trying to jump three levels at once--from never shooting (Level 1) to combat pistol match (Level 4)."

  21. #21
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    longwatch wrote:
    I think the writer addresses some of those issues in the article. He doesn't claim it's a perfect system and that the possiblity exists that shooters at all levels can have hidden strengths as well as serious weaknesses.

    "The fact that someone has been in a gunfight and survived doesn't necessarily make him an expert. He might simply have survived through dumb luck. As the old saying goes, "It's better to be lucky than good." Also, the fact that he had this experience doesn't mean he was hardened by it or even that he learned anything from it. But still, beyond question, the people who've "been there, done that," who learned from and were toughened by the process, have an edge over the rest of us when it comes to preparedness."

    "Those folks who pooh-pooh match pressure have never watched another person lose it during a match stage. I have, and the problem in every case was that these were people trying to jump three levels at once--from never shooting (Level 1) to combat pistol match (Level 4)."
    I could not agree more. I just posted in the Laser no laser thread about training and how it can still fall apart under pressure. A "gunfight" is like any other fight. In boxing it only takes one punch, Martial Arts one hit, gun fight one round. Don't get me wrong, training is extremely important but anyone can loose on any given day. Sorry to be the pessimist(or am I a realist?).

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    Im sure there are a couple teenage thugs who have held there guns sideways and fired blindly at other gang bangers firing blindly back. Does that make them a level 5 gun fighter, superior to a match shooter or a LEO or military trained /qualified shooter? The system is just something fun to pass the time with , like a cosmo poll on favorite sexual positions, nothing more.

  23. #23
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    Well maybe just remove the Level identification. When you put those types of labels people seem to think there is some kind of ranking system,level one is better then level 5 thing going on. In this case I really don't think that was the intent.

    If I had to rate myself I would say 1-5, I never shot a real gun until I joined the Marines.I had my Red Ryder BB gun but I don't think that counts. Of course I got range training there and some real life gunfights when we were evacuating Viet Nam. After I got out of the Corps I work private security for a little while, but then started working for the VA. I sold my gun and didn't pick another one up for almost 20 years.

    When they started killing little girls at Omish schools, I went down bought another one, took my CCW training and got my permit. Since then I have been to regular ranges, started shooting IDPA matches, and have been spent sometime on a computerized tactial simulator. The computerized system I shoot on lets me use my own weapons, my own ammo, so I get a real life feel of what's happening with my own equipment.

    I do one or a combination of these things on a monthly basis, and sometimes more then once a month.

    My instructor at my CCW class made a good statement. He said if you really get into a gunfight. One of the first things your shooting victim or his family (if you killed him) is going to try in prove is that you were not competent to have a fire arm. So my instructor said your should keep track of your shooting.

    He said start a log. Put down anytime you practice. Of course keep certificates of training. Any type of records will show the judge and jury that you made an effort to keep your skills up.

    Yes the other lawyer might try to turn this around on you and say you were a gun nut but I think I would rather trust the jury or judge to realize I was just praciting to keep my skills up.

  24. #24
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    One of the first things your shooting victim or his family (if you killed him) is going to try in prove is that you were not competent to have a fire arm.
    This doesn't make any sense to me. Not competent? hell you hit him when you fired at him.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

  25. #25
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    I have heard similar. The difference being that the prosecution and/or plaintiffmay come after you trying to prove irresponsibility: fired when it wasn't necessary, accidentally fired, big bad gun, modified gun, evil hollowpoints, lasers.

    I follow the advice to log my practice sessions, modifications I make to the pistol,and particularly, my study of law and tactics. An exampleof a tactical item to log having studied would be the recent thread on a bad guy trying to use a Taser on you. Having downloaded, printed, and logged it,you can now show a jury that youreasonably believed deadly force was warranted because once immobilized your weapon could be turned on you. And you knew it before the shooting--not after.

    Definitely log the things that prove you studied responsible firearm use.

    Logging your practice time shows you take seriously the responsibility to not miss and hit a bystander. Logging your ammo selection proves you took seriouslythe responsibility to not shoot through and hit an innocent.

    You get the idea.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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