Are you ready for a gunfight?

longwatch · Jun 7, 2006

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http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/gunfight_060606/index.html

Interesting article on preparation for using a firearm defensively. It lays out five levels to rate yourself and your training level.

Level 1: Shooters who don't shoot.
Level 2: Shooters who practice on standard ranges.
Level 3: Shooters who attend training classes.
Level 4: Match Shooters.
Level 5: Shooters who have been in gunfights.

There is more detail involved of course but it caused me to reevaluate myself and motivated me to get more training and perhaps start participating in IDPA. I have taken a few classes some NRA and Blackwater and have had a fair amount of training from my days in the Marines. I think that puts me at about 3. However personally I want to be at 4 now.

DoubleR · Jun 7, 2006

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I'd like to get into IDPA, myself.

tnroadrunner · Jun 7, 2006

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I am involved in IDPA and USPSA and have had additional training, so I rated myself as a 4.

Bob

John Pierce · Jun 7, 2006

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The shooting sport that me and my wife and kids are into is a lot of fun as well. We do Cowboy Mounted Shooting.

If you think IDPA is fun, try shooting targets at a dead gallop with a horse who isn't too happy about the gunshots. Now THAT is fun

Anyone in the NE Tennessee/SW Virginia area is welcome to come watch one of our events. We have a practice this Sunday June 11th at Lowland TN and a 2 day match in Bristol TN on June 24 & 25. Directions and our club info is at http://www.TNRidgeRunners.com

This is me and my horse Shooter at a recent event.

ilbob · Jun 7, 2006

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Does using corn cob bullets actually count as shooting?

DoubleR · Jun 7, 2006

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That is entirely too cool, John. I wish I was down that way. Had I known it when the kids (3) were at VA Tech, I'd have taken you up on it.

NytoVa · Jun 7, 2006

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How are the classes at Blackwater? I'm taking my first one from them in August.

longwatch · Jun 7, 2006

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NytoVa wrote:

How are the classes at Blackwater? I'm taking my first one from them in August.

I took the 3 day Basic Pistol course and it really improved my shooting. Did some things I had never done with a pistol before like shooting at steel and running targets. I think they are great and would even take the same course again. Some of the shooters in my class were taking it for the second and third times.

TaosGlock · Jun 7, 2006

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Two classes from:
http://www.guntactics.com/page2.php
Some IDPA. I gave myself a 3.
And no, I'm not ready for a gunfight but will give em' hell if need be.

longwatch · Jun 7, 2006

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TaosGlock wrote:

Two classes from:
http://www.guntactics.com/page2.php
Some IDPA. I gave myself a 3.
And no, I'm not ready for a gunfight but will give em' hell if need be.

I wouldn't say you are unready for a gunfight. I think these levels reflect on how one might perform in combat. A lot depends on mindset, situational awareness, initiative, the tactical situation and equipment. A level 5 shooter armed to the teeth who lets himself fall into condition white could be in a world of hurt in a gunfight. On the other hand Thomas Autry, armed with a boxcutter, prevailed against 5 armed with a shotgun and pistol. If one isn't willing to take a life or has never considered it might be in trouble too.
It is interesting to consider how many gun owners fall into level 1. They have a box queen they take out once a year or less. Yet they rely on their piece to be ready if and when somebody breaks into their house. Thats scary.

murphyslaw · Jun 7, 2006

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well unfortunitly I have been in a "gun fight" and thanks to it I was in court and had to do all that b.s it was ruled justifiable(yes he died) and I also have a nice little pin in my right shine from that ordeal, least he only got me once but now i know my squad car door isnt sutable coverage in my book anymore.

John Pierce · Jun 8, 2006

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ilbob wrote:

Does using corn cob bullets actually count as shooting?

Actually, we don't use any projectiles. We use a crimped case full of black powder. When fired, you get a tight burst of hot, burning powder and gas that will pop a balloon up to about 20 feet if aimed properly.

Probably not the same as IDPA when it comes to accuracy, but a heck of a lot of fun if you are a horse person.

John Pierce · Jun 8, 2006

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murphyslaw wrote:

well unfortunitly I have been in a "gun fight" and thanks to it I was in court and had to do all that b.s it was ruled justifiable(yes he died) and I also have a nice little pin in my right shine from that ordeal, least he only got me once but now i know my squad car door isnt sutable coverage in my book anymore.

Glad you are still with us! And glad that you were ruled justified!

Did the round that hit you in the shin come through the door or under?

Are you still a LEO or have you moved on?

murphyslaw · Jun 8, 2006

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it went threw the door. and yeah im still working the beat. got another 20yrs till im even eligable for retirement but dont plane to till they make me.

army_eod · Jun 29, 2006

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I qualify with the Army and shoot on ranges on my own. Was in an ambush in Iraq and returned 80 rounds of 5.56 as we laid down supressive fire. Don't know what I hit. The self-defense reaction was pretty fast and it was not hard to shoot back.

I was a contractor at the time.

We got thru it safely.

cs9c1 · Jun 29, 2006

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army_eod wrote:

I qualify with the Army and shoot on ranges on my own. Was in an ambush in Iraq and returned 80 rounds of 5.56 as we laid down supressive fire. Don't know what I hit. The self-defense reaction was pretty fast and it was not hard to shoot back.

I was a contractor at the time.

We got thru it safely.

Good job. Glad you made it through in one piece. Spent a year their myself, and believe it or not, I never got to return fire(shot at, rocketed, mortared, and a close call with an IED). Their aim sucked thank God!I was usually stuck commanding the vehicle, but got in the turret every chance I had(I actually felt safer knowing I controlled the fire power

). I have no doubt in my mind I would return fire or defend friend, family, and myself or anyone in need without hesitation. The way I have always seen it, it is better them than me. Maybe its the neighborhood I grew up in:?.

ps; I put myself at level 3.

kbheiner7 · Jul 8, 2006

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Any of you guys that have not tried IDPA should give it ago - it is a blast!

It is no substitute for real training, but it's a fun way to get a lot of lead down range from different shooting positions and the competition and ticking clock do add a small element of pressure.

I don't think any of us can say we're ready for a gun fight, but I think it's important for anybody that carries to committ to fight well before hand.

cREbralFIX · Jul 13, 2006

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I don't agree with the leveling system. Just because someone is a "match shooter" (or even been in a gun fight), doesn't mean they are prepared for such. Many skills used in IPSC* and other sports are great ways to get hurt in a real fight.

I'm sure many criminals practice as often as they get into real shootings. That may not be very many rounds a year. :banghead:

Perhaps the question should be more of: how often do you practice gun fighting skills? Skills such as mental awareness, threat identification, tactics, shooting while drawing and moving, shooting with the weak hand while moving, double taps, emergency drills, reloading with one hand, and so forth.

*The above does not apply if you are Rob Leatham, who seems to win everything regardless of gun, gear, or rules.

robbiev427 · Jul 13, 2006

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cREbralFIX wrote:

I don't agree with the leveling system. Just because someone is a "match shooter" (or even been in a gun fight), doesn't mean they are prepared for such. Many skills used in IPSC* and other sports are great ways to get hurt in a real fight.

Additionally, someone could be a match shooter, but have never done #2 or #3. For that matter, someone could have been in a gunfight, but not done any of the first 4.

*The above does not apply if you are Rob Leatham, who seems to win everything regardless of gun, gear, or rules.

Slight hijack...I was in a range in Florida once talking about Rob (although I'm not "friends" with him, I do know him). Specifically, I was talking about seeing him shoot against several other shooters in a steel match. Rob was shooting an "iron sight" gun and the other guys were shooting "open sight" guns (optics), yet Rob still won theshootoff. Some guy butts into my conversation and says, "Uh...if he was that good, he'd be the champion." I simply responded with, "Actually, he is." The guy came back with "He's getting pretty old." I said, "He may be, but he still wins matches."

Caveat: Rob may not be "the" champion, but he's sure won his share of matches.

longwatch · Jul 13, 2006

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I think the writer addresses some of those issues in the article. He doesn't claim it's a perfect system and that the possiblity exists that shooters at all levels can have hidden strengths as well as serious weaknesses.

"The fact that someone has been in a gunfight and survived doesn't necessarily make him an expert. He might simply have survived through dumb luck. As the old saying goes, "It's better to be lucky than good." Also, the fact that he had this experience doesn't mean he was hardened by it or even that he learned anything from it. But still, beyond question, the people who've "been there, done that," who learned from and were toughened by the process, have an edge over the rest of us when it comes to preparedness."

"Those folks who pooh-pooh match pressure have never watched another person lose it during a match stage. I have, and the problem in every case was that these were people trying to jump three levels at once--from never shooting (Level 1) to combat pistol match (Level 4)."

Are you ready for a gunfight?

What Level Of Shooter Are You?

Level 1: Don't shoot.

Level 2: Practice on standard ranges.

Level 3: Attend training classes.

Level 4: Match Shooter.

Level 5: Been in gunfights.

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