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Open Carry In Pennsylvania

dorsey

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I haven't carried openly in PA as of yet, probably due to my conditioning as a NJ resident. When I got a FL CCW many years ago, I remember how nervous I was the first time I noticed a LEO in a checkout line behind me while carrying. Man, I nearly wet my pants and fumbled making change, I was so nervous. I'm surprised the officer didn't "talk" to me just for my suspicious behavior.

The first time I was in Arizona, I was similarly reluctant to carry openly until a local gun shop owner outside Tucson (himself transplanted from Chicago) told me that guns are "invisible" to all but tourists (who have cognitive dissonance when they see non-LEOs carrying guns). I doubt that it's the same in PA, and I can't imagine that I'll get the same reaction carrying my .45 down Hamilton Blvd. in Allentown as I did on Allen Street in Tombstone.

It's worth a try, though, if I can mentally overcome my NJ "training".
 

Jersey Ron

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Dorsey, be careful in PA with your Florida CCW. Below is what I received DIRECTLY from the state of Florida. Mike will get p*ssed off at me but I'm just warning you to be careful. It appears as someone is trying to make life especially difficult for us Jerseyans.



Jersey Ron



Good afternoon, Mr. Paige:

For the time being, the answer to your question is yes. The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania does honor Florida concealed weapon licenses held by non-Florida residents. However, over the past few months, we have received a number of telephone calls and e-mails from citizens who have been told otherwise. Apparently, there is some difference of opinion between the Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office and the Pennsylvania State Police over the precise interpretation of the provisions of the reciprocity agreement. If you call Pennsylvania and pose this question, the answer you will get will depend upon which office you call and which person you speak with.

This is not the first time that this matter has become a disputed issue. When we requested confirmation regarding the status of non-resident Florida licenses in Pennsylvania from the Attorney General's Office in March 2005, Chief Deputy Attorney General Robert A. Mulle informed us that Pennsylvania would honor all valid Florida permits, including those issued to non-residents. I have received verbal confirmation from Mr. Mulle since that time, even as recently as early January. However, e-mails and telephone calls continued to trickle into our office from some of our non-resident licensees who have been told that non-resident licenses would not be honored in Pennsylvania. I sent an e-mail to Mr. Mulle on March 14 explaining the situation to him and requesting a definitive answer. He told me that he would get back to me when he had an answer. To date, I have not received any word from him.

So, as I said, for the time being your non-resident license is valid in the Commonwealth Pennsylvania. This is the official word I have received from the Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office. I regret that conflicting information is coming out of Pennsylvania. I wish I could give you an ironclad answer on this issue. However, I can tell you only when I have been told by the AG's office.

I will put your name in my pending correspondence file regarding the Pennsylvania reciprocity issue. If I get word of a final resolution to this matter, I will send you an e-mail and let you know the outcome.

Ken Wilkinson

Management Analyst

Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services

Division of Licensing

Post Office Box 6687

Tallahassee, Florida 32314-6687

TEL: 850-245-5665

FAX: 850-245-5655





-----Original Message-----

Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 1:34 PM

To: DOLWeb Questions/Inquires

Subject: Ask Your Question



Would like more information, I already have my application:

Concealed Weapon License

My question is: Can someone please tell me if the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania honors the nonresident Florida CCW license? There seems to be a very nasty rumor OR fact floating around in Pennsylvania and I would like to know if its true or not.Thanks,Ronnie
 

dorsey

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Thanks for that heads-up, Ron. I had read your posting earlier and was aware of this issue. Please do keep me posted, if you can.

My FL Concealed Weapon or Firearm License is actually a resident license because I have property down there, took the licensing course locally, and had my prints taken and signed by a uniformed member of the Broward County Sheriff's Department. I subsequently renewed my license through the same address. It may take some explaining to a PA LEO why I have a NJ DL and FL CWFL, but the answer is: dual residence. NJ makes it impossible to insure vehicles registered in this state without a NJ DL, so I took the "path of least resistance".

So, regarding firearms, I'd be a FL resident in PA (I think). As for driving, I'd be a NJ resident in PA (I know). What bothers me more is whether or not the PA law on open carry only applies to PA residents.

Aren't we punished enough just living in the Glorious People's State? Why do other states have to remind us and rub our noses in it?
 

Jersey Ron

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, New Jersey, USA
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I'm not too sure about the Open Carry rule because as far as I can tell the authorities are making things up as they go!! It's a g*d d*mn shame that law abiding people like us have to walk on eggs while GangBanger Joe doesn't give a d*mn about anything. And what p*sses me off even more is that I just passed the ACT 235 (PA Lethal Weapons Training), ranked 2nd in my class and I'm still being treated like a bum!

:cuss:



Jersey Ron
 

dorsey

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I agree, Ron. I've long wondered where to go to get the "thing" that says I'm an honest, upstanding guy? The things that says I'm safe around women and little children? That old people can trust me when I offer to help them across an intersection, carry their bags, or change their tire? And when I'm broken down on the road, that people don't have to drive past me in fear that I'll attack them? That I'm just as safe with a firearm as someone driving a 6000lb. SUV in a crowded parking lot on the Fourth of July? Something that tells law enforcement that I'm part of the solution, and not part of the problem?

Just wearing a police uniform and swearing to uphold law and order doesn't make those who do so any more honest and law-abiding than me, and I find it offensive, especially in NJ, that just being a police officer grants you special privileges. Once you're in that club, you can safely ignore many of the laws that apply to ordinary people, particularly those involving motor vehicles (speeding and parking in particular), and are given extra consideration by your "brothers in blue" as soon as you flash the shield.

I'm not an anarchist by any means, but people who don't live in NJ have no idea how overbearing it can be. I grew up here so my roots are deep, in case any one wonders why I don't just pack up and leave.
 

John Pierce

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dorsey wrote:
I doubt that it's the same in PA, and I can't imagine that I'll get the same reaction carrying my .45 down Hamilton Blvd. in Allentown as I did on Allen Street in Tombstone.

It's worth a try, though, if I can mentally overcome my NJ "training".

I am in Allentown every month on business and I stay at the Wingate on Hamilton Blvd and open carry wherever I go. If you want, the next time I am in town, we can have an Allentown OpenCarry.Org dinner get-together. I'll bet there are a few others in PA who could make it.

Everyone think week of April 22nd and post if you are interested.



John
 

Jersey Ron

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, New Jersey, USA
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I hear you loud and clear bro! Loud and clear! I'm thinking about moving to Georgia after my youngest gets out of high school. Funny, because he's only 1, so I've got about 16-17 years to think about it!:D

I really like Atlanta. It has that city flavor but with good old fashion southern appeal. Who knows? We'll see. I'm headed home!



Take care,



Jersey Ron
 

John Pierce

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dorsey wrote:
What bothers me more is whether or not the PA law on open carry only applies to PA residents.

Open carry is legal for residents and non-residents alike in PA. There actually ISN'T an open carry law. There simply isn't a law prohibiting it; therefore, it is legal. Just like there is no law which states you CAN wear a red shirt. It isn't illegal; therefore it is legal.


John
 

dorsey

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Here's another example of my NJ mindset: I had lived just outside Kutztown and also in Allentown for several years. I noticed that the law and attitude in PA is "feel free to do what you want as long as there's no law against it." In NJ, the law and attitude is: "don't even think of doing anything unless there is a law that specifically allows it and you have written permission from the authorities." Quite a difference.

I regret leaving PA, even though it was a necessary career move at the time. I didn't understand then (the late 70's) that in order to buy a gun, all I needed was money and a PA DL (for handguns through dealers), especially at gun shows. I just assumed that I'd have to go through the same lengthy and degrading permitting process as NJ, even to buy a gun from a friend or neighbor. Now that I have more disposable income, it sure would be nice to have the freedom I missed back then.
 

Dutch Uncle

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Dorsey,
Your story brings back some very unpleasant memories from my days in PRMA in the 70's. At one point I decided to buy a .177 cal air pistol for some target practice in my basement. I was flabbergasted when the department store clerk said I needed a FOID card for the purchase! I went to the police, filled out all the forms, then had to get fingerprints and a mugshot. I had to stand in line with pimps, muggers, thieves and other miscreants for what seemed like an hour. When someone in line asked what I was charged with, I told him I was there to get a permit to buy an air pistol. I still remember the strange looks and derisive chuckles from the low-lives standing behind me. It took the police dept. 3 MONTHS to approve the card, then I had to go downtown during business hours (i.e., take time off from work) to pick it up. I had called 6 weeks into the process, but a very snotty sergeant just told me to be patient; they had more important things to do than attend to my petty request.

That was one of the epiphanies that helped me decide to get out of that benighted place, and move back to the United States (Virginia). In the last quarter century here I have enjoyed lower crime, lower taxes, better climate, better standard of living, friendlier people and a more relaxed pace of life.

Oh, and I can buy an airgun here without being treated like a criminal, just like it was in NJ when I grew up there in the 40's and 50's. If I were back in NJ or MA, I would be hammering away with all I have to get people to open their eyes and become Americans again!

Good luck! Don't let the bastards grind you down!
 

dorsey

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Thanks for sharing that horror story. As they say: "We've got a million of them." This is getting somewhat far afield, but it might be instructive to those in PA now that there is a new permitting/licensing law being proposed.

I'm an NRA Certified Pistol Instructor and work about one course per month in various capacities. During the legal portion of the ten hour Basic Pistol course, we review state law, and ask the audience (about 20-24 people) how long they've waited for Purchase Permits (assuming they already have the FOID). Answers range from six weeks (rare) to eight months (very common); the law provides a three week statutory minimum. NJ law leaves the final process at the discretion of your Chief LEO, which brings up a whole new range of craziness. My town, for example, restricts residents to no more than three permits at a time, and we must be fingerprinted (SBI and FBI) every 18 months. An adjoining town allows only one permit at a time and fingerprinting is required for each permit. Fingerprinting adds three months to the process, and we know that the "safety" issue of excessive fingerprinting is just B.S. - the real point is to throttle handgun purchases and delay our rights. One gun a month restriction? If only! We also have the option of applying to the Superintendent of State Police for permits, but good luck with that! It's hard enough to get a local detective to take the application, nevermind some mindless drone in Trenton with even less motivation.

One wrinkle of NJ law is that a firearm legally purchased outside the state can be brought into the state without any fuss or notice, provided the firearm is legal within NJ (i.e., no "assault weapons"), and the person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms (18 or older, not a habitual drug user, no restraining orders, etc.). Certain items such as black powder revolvers and air pistols that are considered firearms in NJ are NOT considered firearms in PA or NY state, nor under FGCA'68. Thus, we can legally purchase those outside NJ and legally bring them in, avoiding the hassles you experienced. In fact, this is such a popular ploy that almost no gun shops in NJ carry those items - who wants to go through the trouble you did just to buy a $40 air pistol, when you can drive 30 minutes into another state with sensile laws?
 

Jersey Ron

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Hey Dorsey, quick question for you. I know my chances of getting my license to carry in NJ is slim to none. However, I'm in the process of filling out my application anyway. As you know in NJ you must explain the need to carry. My reasoning is that I'm entering the world of bail enforcement in PA as a free-lancer or maybe gaining employment with a local Bail Bondsmen. Either which way, I'm just concerned that those that I bring to justice would probably have a tendency NOT to "forget" me. With this being said my reasoning is quite clear. What rationale could they possibly give me for not wanting to protect me and my family?





Thanks,



Jersey Ron
 

dorsey

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As I understand the law, the compelling reason for the Superior Court judge to sign your permit (the final step) is that your carrying a firearm is in the public's best interest, and that your having a permit increases the general public's safety. Note: not your best interest, nor your safety, but the public in general. I understand that in addition to recently retired (within one year) police, private detectives, body guards, some security guards, and bounty hunters are routinely issued permits, provided proof of employment and their employer's statement of need is presented. All of this, of course, after you get the approval of your CLEO.

I've certified several people in the above categories (non-law enforcement), and learned two things: first, is that the course of fire differs from county to county; and second, that course of fire is a closely guarded secret for some reason. I must sound like an idiot, but I always ask the applicant what course of fire they must complete and then make sure I have the targets to accomodate them.

Keep us posted on your progress and the results. It might be better to move this to the NJ forum so we don't bore those in PA who are probably scratching their heads as to why we stay in NJ.
 
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