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Thread: Transit Issues

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Recently, due to my own letter writing campaign to the legal counsel for the local transit agencies in the Central Puget Sound region, I have managed to convince two public transit agencies to drop their illegal "no weapon or firearms" rules against those who are legally carrying.

    However, I still excercise caution with open carry on public transit at the moment. These agencies (Community (Snohomish) Transit and Pierce Transit) have just started the process of training their drivers, supervisors, security officers, and customer service to recognize the legality of carry on buses. Also, I still haven't begun my effort to educate the PD's on the legality of open carry (the white paper on this is ongoing, I do work for a living, and I can't work on this sort of thing at work at all, gun free zone, won't carry there, etc).

    Though my main focus was with removing the rules and training the drivers, both agencies are in agreement due to me bringing up the issue, that open carry is prima facie legal in Washington State on a bus, as long as you possess a valid Concealed Pistol License (you cannot carry a loaded pistol in a vehicle without a CPL, carried openly or concealed).

    Sound Transit has acknowledged this, however their drivers are from the local transit agencies. I will be in contact with the security division and their security contractor's account manager (Securitas Security Services, USA) to push the point with them.

    Everett Transit is the only remaining agency left, and King County Metro is going to need a reminder, plus the Metro Transit Police. When I have more information, I will let everyone know.

    The reason why I'm doing this proactively is to prevent situations like what happened with Sandy at Bellevue Square with the transit agencies. I've seen public transit drivers violate rules and tell people they couldn't have something on a bus when it's completely legal and not even against the rules. I am hoping to get letters on agency letterhead to clear the path with any rogue drivers.

    Thanks,

    Lonnie Wilson

  2. #2
    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    You sir ... are doing the Lord's work!

    It is little things like this that expands everyone's rights!



  3. #3
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    Lonnie, you are doing a fine job, something that alot of others have not considered worthy of their time. You would be a george mason of our time. thanks.

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    Somebody needs to do what you are doing - but in Pittsburgh re: the Pittsburgh Airport - See http://www.county.allegheny.pa.us/police/trav.asp- this gun ban is completely preempted at government run airports in PA.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Lonnie, you are doing a fine job, something that alot of others have not considered worthy of their time. You would be a george mason of our time. thanks.
    Thank you. I'm an open carrier at heart (and deed), and I do not hide myself from others, whether it be my gun ownership status or my sexual orientation (read up on some of my posts in THR and you'll see that I'm a member of the Pink Pistols). Hiding in the closet is the last thing any gun owner should do.

    Look at Virginia! A very active VCDL, plus open carriers willing to carry statewide, just in the last two years alone. I believe we can achieve the same results in Washington State.

  6. #6
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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    Thank you. I'm an open carrier at heart (and deed), and I do not hide myself from others, whether it be my gun ownership status or my sexual orientation (read up on some of my posts in THR and you'll see that I'm a member of the Pink Pistols). Hiding in the closet is the last thing any gun owner should do.

    Look at Virginia! A very active VCDL, plus open carriers willing to carry statewide, just in the last two years alone. I believe we can achieve the same results in Washington State.

    What is THR?

    Maybe you could be the founder of the WCDL!

    When I was in high school (that would have been several years ago), I belonged to the game club for a few years. One of the war games we played used game pieces that were different colors. The guy who did the worst the previous time got the pink pieces.This playerwas refered to as Pepto during the game.

    We would holler "Go Pepto" when he got an especially good move during a game, (like wiping out someone else's army).

    Go Pepto!


  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    THR = The High Road, another gun forum http://www.thehighroad.org/index.php

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Folks, we have a live one.

    Spokane Transit has emailed me, telling me flat out that open carry is a violation of RCW 9.41.270, and will be treated as a violation of Spokane Transit policy. They do recognize concealed carry with a CPL, however. I told them that they needed to change their rule on their website because it still states no weapons or firearms allowed.

    I also sent them a lengthy email detailing the history of the Black Panther's related gun ban (the source of RCW 9.41.270), the 1994 case and carry law, and the 1997 case and carry law repeal. In the 1997 legislation, the Legislature unequivically stated that open carry of a pistol would be legal statewide if the repeal passed.

    http://www.leg.wa.gov/pub/billinfo/1...sbr_031997.txt

    I think there's a significant open carry problem in Spokane County. Considering what happened to Jason Hartney and their absolute hostility towards him for open carry, I think these people need to get smacked around a few times.

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    Go Pepto!

    Way to be a beacon of truth!

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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    Spokane Transit has emailed me, telling me flat out that open carry is a violation of RCW 9.41.270, and will be treated as a violation of Spokane Transit policy.

    Huh? If it is a violation of RCW 9.41.270, then why don't they arrest you for violating RCW 9.41.270?

    Here's what you might do - email them back and ask them to meet you at a certain time and place where you will be open carrying on their transit system with a video news crew and then they can inform you as to why you are violating VALID and unpreempted Spokane Transit policy - cc all the local news crews, CNN, and FOX.

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    I got a response from Spokane Transit's ombudsman. It's not good even after my attempt to explain to them that RCW 9.41.270 was never meant to be applied in the fashion that they were talking about, they maintain that all open carry outside of the exceptions listed would be considered a violation, and any violators will be charged with violating the unlawful bus conduct statute.

    I'm not in Spokane, but if anyone in here is from Spokane, I'd call up the Ombudsman and file a direct complaint at this point. I can expect this kind of in Seattle, but in Spokane County?

  12. #12
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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    Recently, due to my own letter writing campaign to the legal counsel for the local transit agencies in the Central Puget Sound region, I have managed to convince two public transit agencies to drop their illegal "no weapon or firearms" rules against those who are legally carrying.

    However, I still excercise caution with open carry on public transit at the moment. These agencies (Community (Snohomish) Transit and Pierce Transit) have just started the process of training their drivers, supervisors, security officers, and customer service to recognize the legality of carry on buses. Also, I still haven't begun my effort to educate the PD's on the legality of open carry (the white paper on this is ongoing, I do work for a living, and I can't work on this sort of thing at work at all, gun free zone, won't carry there, etc).

    Though my main focus was with removing the rules and training the drivers, both agencies are in agreement due to me bringing up the issue, that open carry is prima facie legal in Washington State on a bus, as long as you possess a valid Concealed Pistol License (you cannot carry a loaded pistol in a vehicle without a CPL, carried openly or concealed).

    Sound Transit has acknowledged this, however their drivers are from the local transit agencies. I will be in contact with the security division and their security contractor's account manager (Securitas Security Services, USA) to push the point with them.

    Everett Transit is the only remaining agency left, and King County Metro is going to need a reminder, plus the Metro Transit Police. When I have more information, I will let everyone know.

    The reason why I'm doing this proactively is to prevent situations like what happened with Sandy at Bellevue Square with the transit agencies. I've seen public transit drivers violate rules and tell people they couldn't have something on a bus when it's completely legal and not even against the rules. I am hoping to get letters on agency letterhead to clear the path with any rogue drivers.

    Thanks,

    Lonnie Wilson
    Lonnie,

    I'm up in Everett and did a little digging into thier municipal codes to see if they had any laws enacted that place restrictions on firearm carry. To my, not so much, suprise I found this:

    10.78.080 Carrying firearm on public conveyance. A.It is unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to carry, place on, or cause to be carried or placed on any public conveyance within the city limits any firearm unless the firearm shall be broken down or encased, and from which all ammunition shall be first removed, unless the person shall be a peace officer duly authorized to carry the weapon in the furtherance of his duty.
    B.Any person violating any of the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. (Ord. 1145-85 ยง 132, 1985).

    If I am not mistaken this is in direct violation of RCW's 9.41.290 and 9.41.300, also because, if memory serves, 9.41.290 was enacted in 1983 and EMC 10.78.080 was enacted in 1985. You may have some issues with Everett Transit because of this illegal municipal code. I am half tempted to take this to the city council meeting and ask for a repeal, but I figured you have more experience with dealing with these types of morons, and believe me there is alot in Everett.

    BTW your recent post in the pnwopencarry was an outstanding accomplishment. I'd post it here but I would rather more people sign up to read it. I figured Everett would have given you the ration from hell.

    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  13. #13
    Regular Member fatalhubris's Avatar
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    Oops

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Joe,

    In the email that I sent to Everett PD's OPS (Office of Professional Standards), I included the thing about that illegal ordinance. I want to share with you what the email stated in response:

    Mr. Wilson. I wanted to send along an update on what we've done so far.
    I brought this to the attention of our Command Staff, which is made up
    of the Chief and his Commanders, as well as our legal advisor. The
    subject was discussed this morning and it was agreed that you are
    correct in that the State has pre-empted our EMC 10.78.080 "Carrying
    Firearm on Public Conveyance." Instructions will be going out to our
    officers to no longer cite that EMC when they encounter a situation.
    Our legal advisor will be taking steps to create a training bulletin on
    this subject in order to correct any misinformation that any of our
    officers may be presenting. Once the steps have been taken I will
    advise.


    Everett is taken care of on all three scores, on transit, preemption, AND open carry.

  15. #15
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    Roger that. Thanks for all the work you have put into this.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  16. #16
    Regular Member trevorthebusdriver's Avatar
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    You guys can ride my bus any time!!! :celebrate

    (King County Metro)

  17. #17
    Regular Member krazichinaman's Avatar
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    This thread is a bit old....2006 But thanks for the heads up! :celebrate

  18. #18
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    This thread is a couple of years old. Have there been any new developments since it first came out?Is Spokane Transit still out of compliance with state law?

  19. #19
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    irfner wrote:
    This thread is a couple of years old. Have there been any new developments since it first came out?Is Spokane Transit still out of compliance with state law?
    Mason Transit claims to have changed their no guns rule and will allegedly update their next schedules with that info. Their website seems to have been changed to reflect this, plus Bear tells me when he asked them over the phone they acknowledged the legality of carry on the bus.

    InterCity Transit has privately acknowledged to me that it is legal to carry, did a very lame and little known memo to their operators of that effect and do a very good job of dodging the issue when I pressure them to do a better job of training their drivers and changing their rules. I fear I'm gonna have to pay a lawyer to write them a letter... I CC on IT for the time being...

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    What is the current standing with Metro Transit concerning OC/CC?
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    Bookman wrote:
    What is the current standing with Metro Transit concerning OC/CC?
    I OC on Kent bus often never a problem.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    Ravenhawk wrote:
    Bookman wrote:
    What is the current standing with Metro Transit concerning OC/CC?
    I OC on Kent bus often never a problem.
    I don't ride the bus very often anymore, but I'm expecting my permit any day now and don't want to make any foolish mistakes. I believe it's perfectly legal for anyone but the driver. Unfortunately, as far as I know, it's in their employment contract that they can't carry while at work. I DO know that the courts upheld that decision in the past.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

  23. #23
    Regular Member trevorthebusdriver's Avatar
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    We drivers can't do either.

  24. #24
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    trevorthebusdriver wrote:
    We drivers can't do either.
    Man some of the bus routes bullet proof vest & sidearm should be uniform ...

    I'd carry something very concealable if I was a bus driver regardless ...





  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    trevorthebusdriver wrote:
    We drivers can't do either.
    What route? I'll ride it with ya'.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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