Laser or no laser?

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Yes, lasers are gadgets that can fail. So are flight instruments, and pilots in the "golden age of flight" abhored them for that very reason. Who needs more gadgets than a magnetic compass (when has the earth's magnetic field failed) and the good, old, reliable Mark I human eye-ball? But today, we would consider a pilot crazy to think like that and we wouldn't dream of boarding a plane that wasn't equipped with those failure prone gadgets.

There are various pro's and con's to use of lasers, but I think the big issue is this:
In actual shootings, police and civilians hit the bad guy about 20% to 25% of the time with ordinary iron sights. One hit out of four or five shots, with the rest going somewhere unintended. With laser equipped sidearms, the hit rate in actual shootings exceeds 90%. That's far too big a disparity to ignore.

Whatever other disadvantages lasers might have (giving away your position, expense, etc.) the improvement in the ability to hit the target, even for an inexperienced shooter, outweighs it all, in my opinion. It's pretty easy to imagine a time when police and armed civilians will be considered negligent NOT to have a laser sighted sidearm, especially if one of your shots misses the bad guy and hits an innocent bystander.

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markand wrote:

In actual shootings, police and civilians hit the bad guy about 20% to 25% of the time with ordinary iron sights.  One hit out of four or five shots, with the rest going somewhere unintended.  With laser equipped sidearms, the hit rate in actual shootings exceeds 90%.  That's far too big a disparity to ignore.

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As much as I hate Wikipedia, I'm going to say {Citation Needed} on this one...

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Since it's not been mentioned, I'd like to point out:

Green LASERs - visible from point of radiation to point of impact without obstructions. i.e. You can see the beam from the LASER device all the way to the target without anything in the air. This is how a person was recently (past year or so) found and arrested near Sea-Tac Int'l Airport for shining a green LASER at the cockpit of an aircraft; the copilot was able to locate the origin of the beam by simply following it back to the ground.


Red LASERs - visible only at the point of impact or if there are obstructions. i.e. You can't see a red LASER until it hits the target or unless something like dust or smoke is in the air. A red LASER will be virtually "invisible" to the naked eye if it passes through clean air until it hits an object.

If you're wondering why I capitalize LASER, it's because it's an acronym, explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser

Edit: the information I posted is found on that link near the bottom under "Popular Misconceptions", but I knew about it before reading this article from numerous Physics and Chemistry textbooks.

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That doesn't seem possible, that you can trace a green laser (the word has since become a word seperate from its origin as an acronym... Do you capitalize MODEM?) in a dust-free environment.

Unless the light has something to bounce off of (floating particles, hairs, dust, small insects), theoretically, you should not be able to see the beam.

On the other hand, if the laser is putting out so much power that it ionizes the air, you would need something more than would fit on your keychain (perhaps in your garage) to power it.

That being said, joker on the airplane was probably giggling, or otherwise giving himself away. Plus, an active laser pointer is slightly easy to spot, if the laser is on, even if you can't see where it is pointing.

Just look for the glowing green/red dot.

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AbNo wrote:

markand wrote:

In actual shootings, police and civilians hit the bad guy about 20% to 25% of the time with ordinary iron sights. One hit out of four or five shots, with the rest going somewhere unintended. With laser equipped sidearms, the hit rate in actual shootings exceeds 90%. That's far too big a disparity to ignore.

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As much as I hate Wikipedia, I'm going to say {Citation Needed} on this one...

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Cite: March 2007 issue of Combat Handguns magazine included an article on street results with Crimson Trace laser grips. CT has long claimed a 400% improvement over iron sights. CT grips are being installed on police guns quite gradually, probably owing to high initial cost and gadget aversion, and haven't been involved in a very large number of shootings. Nevertheless, CT has been carefully following how their product performs in the real world and the reported results of actual street shootings is remarkable. Summarizing the results of the actual shootings as reported by Combat Handguns:

Number of shooting incidents involving guns with Laser Grips: 8
Number of targets engaged: 10 (8 human perpetrator/suspects and 2 attacking dogs)
Number of shots fired: 26
Number of hits: 24
Hit percentage: 92%
Typical hit percentage for iron sight only guns in actual shootings: 20% to 25%
Number of likely hits with iron sight only guns firing 26 shots: 5
Number of shots needed with iron sight only guns to get 24 hits: 120

Now 8 incidents doesn't exactly comprise a large, definitive pool of data, but 24 hits with 26 shots fired is impressive. Especially considering that only about 1 of every 4 or 5 shots fired from iron sight only guns actually hit the intended target in a typical police or defensive shooting. It is this improvement in the hit rate, and dramatic reduction in errant shots and consequent liability for same that I believe is going to overcome most objections, including cost, and put these devices on more and more police guns (not just SWAT types) and more and more guns carried by armed civilians, even those who don't or won't practice.

Indeed, those who don't or won't practice (police legal counsel take note) might be the greatest beneficiaries of a laser sight. Last summer, I took a church youth group to the NRA range. Many had never fired a gun before. While some struggled with iron sights, EVERYBODY hit dead center with virtually every shot using the gun with the laser grips. As I said in the previous post, that's far too big an improvement to ignore.

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AbNo wrote:

That doesn't seem possible, that you can trace a green laser (the word has since become a word seperate from its origin as an acronym... Do you capitalize MODEM?) in a dust-free environment.

Unless the light has something to bounce off of (floating particles, hairs, dust, small insects), theoretically, you should not be able to see the beam.

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It's mostly true. At night with just a little humidity you can see these things. I went outdoors one night with some amatuer astronomers for some telescope viewing, and this one guy had a green laser that he used to point at stars and objects in the sky as he talked to us. This thing was amazing, you could see the beam from his hand going up into the sky so far that it was obvious which star he was pointing at. These are more expensive than your average red laser pointer, and I would be careful around the eyes with them, of course, but they're for real.

Here's one:

http://z-bolt.com/generic27.html?gclid=CJGmp5Xk5YwCFQoNgQodPkijyw

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Seeing that having an extra doodad on my gun wouldn't hurt. So when I bought my first 1911, I made sure it came with lasergrips.

I normally dry fire with the laser on to help my "jerking" since I always anticipate the recoil. The way I use my range time is for point shooting. I am a firm believer that in my first time using my firearm defensively, using the sights will go out the door. Having the laser is only a "guideline" letting me know that I'm pointing in the general area. I know for a fact that where I put the red dot, the bullet doesn't automatically go there. Again, I practice point shooting for self-defensive situations.

Before I holster my weapon I make sure the laser is still sighted in. I have it sighted for 20 ft.


Rapid fire with a laser is a blast!

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If you can splurge on this... I think LaserMax is a better product than Crimson Trace:

http://www.lasermax-inc.com/about/whyLaserMax.php

I love my laser for dry-fire drills and as well as 20-yd rapid fire.

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I'm not keen on the fact you can't adjust them, though.

I like the idea of a frame-mounted site, but I'd also like to be able to adjust it, as well....

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It seems to me that in the high stress situation of a defensive shooting most people tend to target fixate. Looking at the target instead of the front site makes for inaccurate shooting. Frequent realistic training and competition shooting can help prepare for this. However many gun owners only have the timeand moneyto go to the stall at a gun range and shoot at a paper target. This tendency to target fixate is likely the cause of the very low hit percentage in police shootings. Having a laser allows for what comes naturally. That is looking at the target, placing the dot on the target, and firing.

I havecrimsontrace lasergrips. I practice point shooting with them on and I turn them off and practice aimed shots with the sights.

As to reliability. I hate to admit this, but here's my story. I was riding my motorcycle with my gun in a fanny pack type concealment holster at high speed. The holster unzipped and allowed the gun to fall out and skip down the highway. Luckily my girlfriend was behind me and saw it and picked it up for me. I learned from this to never ride without a holster that has very good retention.

As you can imagine the gun took some damage. The guide rod was bent. The sights were severely ground down, and the rear sight was knocked way out of alignment. The laserstill worked. After I fixed it up and put new sights on it, I took it to the range. I adjusted the new sights then turned on the laser and fired a few shots expecting to have to adjust it too. I was surprised to find the gun still hit right where the laser points at 50 ft just like I had adjusted it months ago.


Edited: Actually have crimson trace lasergrips not lasermax.

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vmaxanarchist wrote:

I was surprised to find the gun still hit right where the laser points at 50 ft just like I had adjusted it months ago.

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Wow, suck story about the gun, glad to hear it still works... I'm not too surprised though after I read about their guide-rod laser:

http://www.americanhandgunner.com/Lasermax.html

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unrequited wrote:

vmaxanarchist wrote:

I was surprised to find the gun still hit right where the laser points at 50 ft just like I had adjusted it months ago.

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Wow, suck story about the gun, glad to hear it still works... I'm not too surprised though after I read about their guide-rod laser:

http://www.americanhandgunner.com/Lasermax.html

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Sorry, I meant to say I have Crimson Trace lasergrips, not Lasermax.

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Got Sig? wrote:

I have an internal Lasermax on my SIG P229. I use it primarilly as a training aid, as it allows me to see where I may be anticipating recoil, jerking the trigger, or using other bad habits. When I train with it, the idea is to keep it from moving off the target center. Training with it over time promotes muscle memory and actually makes you a better point shooter. I don't carry with it installed.

There is also the intimidation factor, but I don't know if I would use it in a self defense scenario.

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+1 on this. I use laser for training purpose, but I dont ever use it when I carry.

Falc

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Falcon118 wrote:

Got Sig? wrote:

I don't carry with it installed.

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...but I dont ever use it when I carry.

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Curiously why don't either of you guys carry with it? Do you not trust the spring?

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I'm gonna go with personal preference on this one. I cant exactly pin down my reason other than i'm not "comfortable" with having the laser installed while I'm carrying. Sorry if that's a bit vague.

Falc

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Falcon118 wrote:

I'm gonna go with personal preference on this one.  I cant exactly pin down my reason other than i'm not "comfortable" with having the laser installed while I'm carrying.  Sorry if that's a bit vague.

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Nah, your gut feeling's your gut feeling. No argument from me, just wondering if you didn't trust the hardware...