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Thread: Anarchangel on Open Carry

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Just reading Anarchangels post on open carry in Arizona. I seems there what would be considered concealed carry here is open carry.http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2006...pen-carry.html

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    I'm with longwatch. For the most part, the gun is concealed. The pocket clip of the holster resembles the type which is commonly found on knives.

    ProguninTN

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    He should just get a CCW if he's concerned with getting "caught carrying concealed".

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    I agree with Lonnie.Get theCCW permit,and cover yourself every which way.

    This style of"open carry" seems to be pushing the envelope a bit, but it would seem to be OK in Arizona, so all's well. No doubt the cops in less gun friendly states might get a bit picky, but it would appear that the gun can be accessed quickly, so more power to him!

    TrueBrit.

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    Hi guys, Chris Byrne here, the author of the piece linked above.

    I AM a CCW permit holder, have been for years, and I'm in no way concerned with being caught carrying concealed; meaning you need to remove those quotes.

    The point to the post is that:

    1. Open carry in AZ need not be blatant
    2. Excercising your right to open carry is a good thing

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    The problem Archangel is that you claim that this is "lawful open carry." That's a dangerous thing to claim. The 1/2 square inch rule is (as far as I know) nowhere in law, and is probably someone's rule-of-thumb that came from who knows where. LEO's often make up things like this as well...

    I heard of a recent arrest in AZ of someone carrying small-of-back like in your 1911 photo because the police officer he was talking to could not see the gun. According to law the firearm/holster must be "wholly or partially visible." What does that mean? Well, it wasn't visible to the cop. (I could go on and on how abnormal this is for AZ, and how legally in the WRONGthe copwas, but I won't now)

    I didn't hear if this arrest resulted in a conviction, but I would be VERY surprised if it did, especially in AZ. Either way...

    Another example would be how fanny pack holsters technically according to the letter of the law are open carry, but have been ruled concealed carry.

    I guess my point is to be careful claiming that what you have in the photo IS "lawful open carry." Because the law simply isn't that clear, even if you could make a good case. And I know nothing about 1/2 square inch in the law. "Wholly or partially visible" is what the law says...

    I don't mean to bash, I admire you for exercising your rights and hope you keep it up. It's just that in theory you can get into legal trouble for making a claim that such a gray area is in fact legal.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    F. Subsection A, paragraph 1 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a belt holster which holster is wholly or partially visible, or carried in a scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons which scabbard or case is wholly or partially visible or carried in luggage. Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.

    Looks to me that there is a large loophole that works in favor of open carriers in Arizona. Now PDO recommends 3 inches of the holster be visible, and Chris(Anarchangel) believes 1/2 inch qualifies. I think he has a fair chance of being correct by the definition of the law. I'm guessing the intent of this law was based on the premise that good guys use holsters and to keep open carriers from getting hung up if their shirt or something obscured their holster or it was even written as a poison pill against anti gunners (I'm just speculating). If anyone knows any case law for a definition of how much holster keeps one legal I think it would be a useful addition to Arizona page.

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    Hello all.

    This post caught my attention quickly, as I too have entertained the notion of carrying in a similar method, so I approached my wife (Phoenix PD Officer) to get the Academy answer on this. She told me that according to the training they get, this is considered concealed. I openly carry often, and so as not to anger her, I carry a Glock 21 in a paddle holster, that leaves absolutely no question if I have a firearm.

    I do have one question thatshe could not answer that I hope you all can. When carrying in Arizona, is there a requirementfor the weapon to be, what we call in the ARMY, red tight? Meaning a bullet in the chamber, safety on.

    Due tohaving a small child that is naturally inquisitive, I often carry theweapon at home without at round in the chamber. I know in my home that is my right, but as my child gets her little fingers into my holster, I don'twant her shooting me in the leg with my own weapon, but when I am in public I normally red...whatdoes the law stipulate, if it does.

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    This board is a little different than others - if you ask a question about a limitaion on conduct in state law, you should first document why you think the law might limit the conduct in question?

    As you are in Arizona, have you researched AZ code to see if any requirement like this exists?

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    Hawkeye, I can't imagine the law stipulating that the weapon must have a round chambered. The only law that I can think of is in Utah, where open carry without a permit is only legal without a round chambered. I can't imagine that the converse would be true in Arizona. Like Mike said though, consult your state laws.

    I just want to say that, although Israeli carry is an accepted, although minority, opinion on how to carry a handgun, training and consistency are important. If I were to carry with no round chambered I would do it all the time and train to rack the slide on the draw. In a crisis we revert to our training, and not having a round chambered when you think you do and you need your gun could create problems to say the least.

    Overall, my suggestion is to be consistent in how you carry. If you do not trust your holster to keep your weapon from firing under anticipated conditions, you should look for a new holster.

    Oh, and welcome to the board.

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    I apologize for not maintaining the integrity of the forum, by asking a question without doing all the research. I must explain the reason for this though. As my wife and family live in Arizona, and I call that home, I am an Active Army Officer, stationed in California. I have attempted to find through the WEB the laws pertaining to this, but was unable to locate the specific information. My wife has told me that I am allowed to carry in any manner I feel comfortable, but I have noticed contradiction in her information and that posted here before.

    Due to the vast experience and knowledge of the subscribers here, I felt compelled to utilize this asset to gain the information and tap their vast information and experience in this matter.

    I once again apologize for the improper post.

    Hawkeye

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    Hawkeye wrote:
    I apologize for not maintaining the integrity of the forum, by asking a question without doing all the research. I must explain the reason for this though. As my wife and family live in Arizona, and I call that home, I am an Active Army Officer, stationed in California. I have attempted to find through the WEB the laws pertaining to this, but was unable to locate the specific information. My wife has told me that I am allowed to carry in any manner I feel comfortable, but I have noticed contradiction in her information and that posted here before.

    Due to the vast experience and knowledge of the subscribers here, I felt compelled to utilize this asset to gain the information and tap their vast information and experience in this matter.

    I once again apologize for the improper post.

    Hawkeye
    Hawkeye,

    Don't worry about it! Mike may be a little grumpy because he is hard at work in law school and also trying to do the Lord's work out here in the real world

    You feel free to ask any question you have and we will do our best to answer it!

    Seriously, I think Mike was just pointing out that we see a LOT of questions where people have been TOLD by someone well-meaning, but mis-informed, about laws that do not exist. He is trying to encourage people to learn to research laws.

    But not everyone has the experience doing this that we have and this forum is exactly where we want to help you get those answers and learn what to look for.

    And NO ... there is no law in Arizona which requires a loaded round (or absence of one) for an openly carried handgun (or a concealed one for that matter).

    Welcome aboard! I hope we can use you to ask the occasional question of your wife to get LEO "opinions" about Arizona issues?

    PS. And thank you for your service to our country!



    John



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    hirundo82 wrote:
    Hawkeye, I can't imagine the law stipulating that the weapon must have a round chambered. The only law that I can think of is in Utah, where open carry without a permit is only legal without a round chambered. I can't imagine that the converse would be true in Arizona. Like Mike said though, consult your state laws.

    I just want to say that, although Israeli carry is an accepted, although minority, opinion on how to carry a handgun, training and consistency are important. If I were to carry with no round chambered I would do it all the time and train to rack the slide on the draw. In a crisis we revert to our training, and not having a round chambered when you think you do and you need your gun could create problems to say the least.

    Overall, my suggestion is to be consistent in how you carry. If you do not trust your holster to keep your weapon from firing under anticipated conditions, you should look for a new holster.

    Oh, and welcome to the board.

    I just Bought the Blackhawk CQC Serpa for my kimber, I paid $43 @ Doug's in Taylorsville ,Ut . I gives a REALLY good retention that ONLY you can control. Not even an LEO can yank the piece out of your holster. can carry it crossdraw/FBI cant. It's a good holster, check it out


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    hirundo82 wrote:
    Hawkeye, I can't imagine the law stipulating that the weapon must have a round chambered. The only law that I can think of is in Utah, where open carry without a permit is only legal without a round chambered. I can't imagine that the converse would be true in Arizona. Like Mike said though, consult your state laws.

    I just want to say that, although Israeli carry is an accepted, although minority, opinion on how to carry a handgun, training and consistency are important. If I were to carry with no round chambered I would do it all the time and train to rack the slide on the draw. In a crisis we revert to our training, and not having a round chambered when you think you do and you need your gun could create problems to say the least.

    Overall, my suggestion is to be consistent in how you carry. If you do not trust your holster to keep your weapon from firing under anticipated conditions, you should look for a new holster.

    Oh, and welcome to the board.

    I just Bought the Blackhawk CQC Serpa for my kimber, I paid $43 @ Doug's in Taylorsville ,Ut . I gives a REALLY good retention that ONLY you can control. Not even an LEO can yank the piece out of your holster. can carry it crossdraw/FBI cant. It's a good holster, check it out


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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    AnarchAngel wrote:
    Hi guys, Chris Byrne here, the author of the piece linked above.

    I AM a CCW permit holder, have been for years, and I'm in no way concerned with being caught carrying concealed; meaning you need to remove those quotes.

    The point to the post is that:

    1. Open carry in AZ need not be blatant
    2. Excercising your right to open carry is a good thing
    Chris - Arizona open carry laws have been obfuscated by two 1994 Appellate Court decisions: State v. Adams & State v. Moerman

    The courts interpreted the "partially or wholly visible" language in the law to mean obvious to casual observation. If a cop can't see your gun under ordinary observation, you are carrying concealed.

    Even without those bad court decisions, open carry is only legal per the law when carried in a belt holster and the holster (not the gun) must be visible. A clip is not a holster and a gun in a pocket, even if it's showing is not a belt holstered gun.

    CCW classes (I'm an instructor) are taught using Michael Anthony's "Legal Issue Relating to the Use of Deadly Force". Check out pages 20-23. Mike addresses open carry issues there. On page 22, he states "A person can avoid the problems and pitfalls of carrying and transporting fireamrs in Arizona by possessing an Arizona CCW permit...." because of all the cloudiness created by the court decisions.

    AzCDLis pushing two bills this session to address these problems. The first is SB1301 which redifines open carry and eliminates the language that the 1994 court decisions were based on. The second is SB1250which reduces the penalty for carrying concealed without a permit to a petty offense for first time offenders.

    Fred

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