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CC or Oc in Banks, Post Offices

muledoe

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
48
Location
Lincoln Park, Michigan, USA
imported post

ok, how come on the back os the lisence states where you can not take your pistol?

like it says above you can take it in any of those areas, execmpt CCW holders.?? does that make sence?
 

Leader

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Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
274
Location
Livingston Co., Michigan, , USA
imported post

muledoe wrote:
ok, how come on the back os the lisence states where you can not take your pistol?

like it says above you can take it in any of those areas, execmpt CCW holders.?? does that make sence?

You have been told over & over... There is a list of places you CAN NOT open carry. That list DOES NOT apply to holders of a CPL. There is another list of places you CAN NOT carry WITH a CPL. These two lists are similar but not the same.

There are also FEDERAL LAWS concerning firearms. These apply to everyone in the USA including holders of a Michigan CPL. IF you are going to carry a firearm, you should read & understand ALL the laws that apply. As a student of the law, you understand what happens if you don't. You also seem to believe that you can & will be arrested for OBEYING the law.
 

muledoe

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Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
48
Location
Lincoln Park, Michigan, USA
imported post

Leader wrote:
muledoe wrote:
ok, how come on the back os the lisence states where you can not take your pistol?

like it says above you can take it in any of those areas, execmpt CCW holders.?? does that make sence?

You have been told over & over... There is a list of places you CAN NOT open carry. That list DOES NOT apply to holders of a CPL. There is another list of places you CAN NOT carry WITH a CPL. These two lists are similar but not the same.

There are also FEDERAL LAWS concerning firearms. These apply to everyone in the USA including holders of a Michigan CPL. IF you are going to carry a firearm, you should read & understand ALL the laws that apply. As a student of the law, you understand what happens if you don't. You also seem to believe that you can & will be arrested for OBEYING the law.


the list on the back shows where I a person with a CPL can not carry, openly and conceal.

I like said in other post, we should met up and talk id love to chit chat about it.

not really arreseted for obeying. Most cops i have ask say they will arreste you. Weather they know the law or dont, and most prolly dont serveral of them said id most likely get a gun pointed at me until the matter was straighten out. 1st that would suck, and publicly as well. 2, cant that cause a panic in public as well, since if most cops dont know the law then most cit. wont know it either?

This is my 1st year if law, i never touch on this before. All i did was go for the CPL and did what the intructor told me to do and what not to do. i never question it. But this is starting to get my attention now. And like i said before thank you for the help.
 

Leader

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
274
Location
Livingston Co., Michigan, , USA
imported post

"the list on the back shows where I a person with a CPL can not carry, openly and conceal.

I like said in other post, we should met up and talk id love to chit chat about it.

not really arreseted for obeying. Most cops i have ask say they will arreste you. Weather they know the law or dont, and most prolly dont serveral of them said id most likely get a gun pointed at me until the matter was straighten out. 1st that would suck, and publicly as well. 2, cant that cause a panic in public as well, since if most cops dont know the law then most cit. wont know it either?

This is my 1st year if law, i never touch on this before. All i did was go for the CPL and did what the intructor told me to do and what not to do. i never question it. But this is starting to get my attention now. And like i said before thank you for the help."



If you READ the back of the CLP, it states "........except a licensee shall NOT CARRY A CONCEALED PISTOL ..........."

It doesn't say anything about you rights to openly carry a firearm in this state .

And like I said, I find it awfully hard to believe that any police officer would tell you that. Exactally what was the question you asked?????

I sure am glad I didn't get taught by your instructer. Who did the legal part of your class? You should ask for your money back .
 

muledoe

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
48
Location
Lincoln Park, Michigan, USA
imported post

i just ask that what is their opinion on open carry of a weapon. Then from they tell tell me their minds. Most of them say what i told you.

After they say that i inform them on the law, and even after that they still say the same thing.
 

muledoe

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
48
Location
Lincoln Park, Michigan, USA
imported post

yeah on the back of the lisense it says

"this license allows the licensee to carry a pistole on or about his person anywhere in the state, execpt a licensee shall not carry a concealed pistol at school, on school property, day care center, chiild placing agecny, sprot arena, staduim, bar or tavern licensed to server liquor, chich, temple or other place of worship, entert. facil. seating more than 2500, hospital, class room of a college, casino or otherwise prohibited by law. Consult the statue for comple wordking of pistol free zone."

i dont see anything about banks so yeah. like leader said it says cannot carry conceal. but does it mean that u can carry openly. i think u said yeah before but there is a nother list?
 

DreQo

State Researcher
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
2,350
Location
Minnesota
imported post

Ok guys, i'm trying to figure this stuff out. So this isMichigan's general firearm possession prohibitions:
750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.


Sec. 234d.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre.

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.


Nowfrom reading that, this tells me that permitholders need not pay any attention to these prohibitions, right?



Ok, so then I got this fromtheMichigan gov't website:


Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol on the following premises:

  1. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian[/font]

  2. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.
    [/font]

  3. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Sports arena or stadium
    [/font]

  4. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises
    [/font]

  5. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons
    [/font]

  6. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more
    [/font]

  7. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]A hospital
    [/font]

  8. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
    [/font]

  9. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]ACasino

    [/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica"]"Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed above in 1 through 8.[/font]
Now these prohibitions are specifically for concealed pistols carried by permit holders.

So we have a list of prohibitions that don't apply to permit holders, and a list of prohibitions that only apply to concealed weapons. Unless I'm missing something, this means that there are no State prohibitions for a permit holder who is openly carrying a handgun...right?

Forgive me if this has already been discussed. I just scanned through the Michigan threads quick as I may be taking a trip there eventually, so I thought I'd clear this up quick.
 

SpringerXDacp

New member
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
3,341
Location
Burton, Michigan
imported post

DreQo wrote:
Now these prohibitions are specifically for concealed pistols carried by permit holders.

So we have a list of prohibitions that don't apply to permit holders, and a list of prohibitions that only apply to concealed weapons. Unless I'm missing something, this means that there are no State prohibitions for a permit holder who is openly carrying a handgun...right?

Forgive me if this has already been discussed. I just scanned through the Michigan threads quick as I may be taking a trip there eventually, so I thought I'd clear this up quick.
From a previous post by Venator;

There has been some discussion on whether a Michigan CPL holder can carry openly in areas off limits to open carry by non-permit holders. A history lesson is needed. The places off limits to open-carry were established in 1933. Below is the citation of this act. The verbiage that is getting everyone excited is this exemption: (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
[/b]
On the surface it would appear that this allows CPL holder the right to open carry in these areas, but the intent of this law was to allow the “old” CPL holder, that is, those issued before 2001 to carry CONCEALED in these areas, because a Sheriff could put any restrictions they wanted on a CPL before that date. Often a Sheriff would issue CPL’s that were restricted to hunting/target shooting only. But he could also place no restriction on the CPL (Lucky few) and these people were allowed to carry concealed anywhere [/b]in the state (Federal restrictions applied), including those places prohibited to open carry, (but concealed). In order to clarify this allowance the above exemption was added (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon. [/b]It is really outdated since 2001 and should be addressed by the legislature. This line was not intended to let recent (since 2001) CPL holders to openly carry in these places. Since 2001 places off-limits to concealed carry cover some of the places off-limits to open carry, in fact these restrictions were a compromise to allow the new law to pass. Since 2001 lawmakers are trying to reduce the number of places off-limits to concealed carry and are slowly working towards that end.


Now could some argue this point? Yes, but I’m guessing they would lose. I bet if you asked any LEO or DA they would arrest/prosecute you for doing this. I know I would want to get this point cleaned up before I would openly carry in a hospital based on my CPL.


I agree with Venator. But,

Per Mike;

snip


And in Michigan, "[t]he primary object of judicial interpretation of criminal statutes is to ascertain and give effect to the intent of the Legislature. People v. Crousore, 159 Mich App 304, 310; 406 NW2d 280 (1987), lv den sub nom People v. Wyngaard, 430 Mich 893 (1988). When statutory language is clear and unambiguous, judicial interpretation to vary the plain meaning of the statute is precluded. The Legislature must have intended the meaning it plainly expressed, and the statute must be enforced as written [emphasis added by OCDO SuperModerator]. Hiltz v. Phil's Quality Market, 417 Mich 335, 343; 337 NW2d 237 (1983). See also People v. Johnson, 174 Mich App 108, 115; 435 NW2d 465 (1989).


...how can you disagree with this?
 

DreQo

State Researcher
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
2,350
Location
Minnesota
imported post

Can anyone cite this "original intent"? Is this opinion or fact? If it can't be quoted, then the laws should be followed as they are written.
 

floridarealtor

New member
Joined
Feb 11, 2011
Messages
1
Location
Ocoee, Florida, United States
A firearm on postal property is a federal crime with fine and up to 1 yr - fed prison

I am a contract negotiator, as well as postal worker. I have been a concealed carry citizen since I was old enough to do so. I often go to concealed carry sites and almost always find a thread that begs the question "can you carry in a post office?" The answer is NO. Not only is it against the law to have it IN the office, it is also against the law to have it on the grounds. Leaving a firearm in your glove box, under your seat, or even emptied and locked up in a secured biometric gun safe locked in the trunk of your car is ILLEGAL. It can result in fines and/or incarceration of up to 1 year. 18 USC 930 (d) (3) is what most people try to argue this fact with, as it states, " the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes." People state that by have a licensed permit to carry concealed, they are conducting their possession as "other lawful purpose."

However, 39 USC 410 EXEMPTS post offices from 18 USC 930 since it is a federal facility. 39 USC 410 specifically excludes 18 USC 930 from applying to the Postal Service Authority. In addition, 39 CFR 232.1 clearly states "Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes."

This means not only is it Illegal to have them on your person, it is also illegal to have it in your car OUTSIDE. An earlier thread post stated that a man would just remain outside while his wife took the mail into the office to mail. The second his vehicle crosses the threshold of postal property, regardless of where he stands or his intent, he is automatically in violation of federal law. In addition, the US Postal Service has explicit right to search any person or vehicle on postal property at any time.

If someone is SUSPECT of having a gun in his CAR...and postal inspectors arrive....they have the right to detain the car, and search. All this is granted the US Postal Inspection Service. IN ADDITION, THE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL IS ONE OF ONLY A FEW GOVERNMENT BRANCHES THAT HAS THE EXPLICIT AUTHORITY TO INCARCERATE FOR POSTAL CRIMES.

In addition, I have read in other threads such things as what if the sign is not "conspicuously displayed" or if the office is rented or leased. Failure to have the sign "conspicuously displayed" may only give you a defense against long term incarceration. keep in mind that federal bulletin boards INSIDE the postal facility are still considered CONSPICUOUS. If you were discovered to have a concealed weapon on postal property and the authorities are notified, they will, citing federal statue, handcuff you and take you to jail. Rented or leased property that is leased by the federal government is also enforced by the same rights and laws as owned federal property as it is government controlled by the contract signed with the USPS.

If you go to a place like your local hardware store, and it has a post office in the back, then carrying a firearm into a facility in which USPS is operating makes that place also protected by the same regulations.....therefore making it illegal to carry into that facility as well.

There are few things I tell people NOT to do when it comes to the post office. As a union steward and mail carrier, I find that I am often best served by questioning everything. But in all seriousness.....as unfair as it is......as seemingly unconstitutional as it may be.....do NOT pull into the parking lot of a post office....sign or no sign......rented or not.....etc....with a firearm in your possession.

Finally...one of the best explanations of the application of these regulations was on a michigan message board. I have enclosed the link below.

If you read sites that state "official purpose" is a way to challenge it, investigate further. You will find that 39 CFR 232.1 supercedes 18 USC 930 and gives all authority to the Post Office....and closes any possibility of a loophole ever existing.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Concealed-carry-in-a-post-office-may-lead-to-rude-awakening
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
I am a contract negotiator, as well as postal worker. I have been a concealed carry citizen since I was old enough to do so. I often go to concealed carry sites and almost always find a thread that begs the question "can you carry in a post office?" The answer is NO. Not only is it against the law to have it IN the office, it is also against the law to have it on the grounds. Leaving a firearm in your glove box, under your seat, or even emptied and locked up in a secured biometric gun safe locked in the trunk of your car is ILLEGAL. It can result in fines and/or incarceration of up to 1 year. 18 USC 930 (d) (3) is what most people try to argue this fact with, as it states, " the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes." People state that by have a licensed permit to carry concealed, they are conducting their possession as "other lawful purpose."

However, 39 USC 410 EXEMPTS post offices from 18 USC 930 since it is a federal facility. 39 USC 410 specifically excludes 18 USC 930 from applying to the Postal Service Authority. In addition, 39 CFR 232.1 clearly states "Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes."

This means not only is it Illegal to have them on your person, it is also illegal to have it in your car OUTSIDE. An earlier thread post stated that a man would just remain outside while his wife took the mail into the office to mail. The second his vehicle crosses the threshold of postal property, regardless of where he stands or his intent, he is automatically in violation of federal law. In addition, the US Postal Service has explicit right to search any person or vehicle on postal property at any time.

If someone is SUSPECT of having a gun in his CAR...and postal inspectors arrive....they have the right to detain the car, and search. All this is granted the US Postal Inspection Service. IN ADDITION, THE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL IS ONE OF ONLY A FEW GOVERNMENT BRANCHES THAT HAS THE EXPLICIT AUTHORITY TO INCARCERATE FOR POSTAL CRIMES.

In addition, I have read in other threads such things as what if the sign is not "conspicuously displayed" or if the office is rented or leased. Failure to have the sign "conspicuously displayed" may only give you a defense against long term incarceration. keep in mind that federal bulletin boards INSIDE the postal facility are still considered CONSPICUOUS. If you were discovered to have a concealed weapon on postal property and the authorities are notified, they will, citing federal statue, handcuff you and take you to jail. Rented or leased property that is leased by the federal government is also enforced by the same rights and laws as owned federal property as it is government controlled by the contract signed with the USPS.

If you go to a place like your local hardware store, and it has a post office in the back, then carrying a firearm into a facility in which USPS is operating makes that place also protected by the same regulations.....therefore making it illegal to carry into that facility as well.

There are few things I tell people NOT to do when it comes to the post office. As a union steward and mail carrier, I find that I am often best served by questioning everything. But in all seriousness.....as unfair as it is......as seemingly unconstitutional as it may be.....do NOT pull into the parking lot of a post office....sign or no sign......rented or not.....etc....with a firearm in your possession.

Finally...one of the best explanations of the application of these regulations was on a michigan message board. I have enclosed the link below.

If you read sites that state "official purpose" is a way to challenge it, investigate further. You will find that 39 CFR 232.1 supercedes 18 USC 930 and gives all authority to the Post Office....and closes any possibility of a loophole ever existing.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Concealed-carry-in-a-post-office-may-lead-to-rude-awakening

I would think the 4th amendment would apply. Searching a car needs probable cause.
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
"Rented or leased property that is leased by the federal government is also enforced by the same rights and laws as owned federal property as it is government controlled by the contract signed with the USPS."

Cite please. Also you mentioned that they could search for a gun? Could you cite that as well? What is the scope of their ability to search, cars, cavities?
 

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
I am a contract negotiator, as well as postal worker. I have been a concealed carry citizen since I was old enough to do so. I often go to concealed carry sites and almost always find a thread that begs the question "can you carry in a post office?" The answer is NO. Not only is it against the law to have it IN the office, it is also against the law to have it on the grounds. Leaving a firearm in your glove box, under your seat, or even emptied and locked up in a secured biometric gun safe locked in the trunk of your car is ILLEGAL. It can result in fines and/or incarceration of up to 1 year. 18 USC 930 (d) (3) is what most people try to argue this fact with, as it states, " the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes." People state that by have a licensed permit to carry concealed, they are conducting their possession as "other lawful purpose."

However, 39 USC 410 EXEMPTS post offices from 18 USC 930 since it is a federal facility. 39 USC 410 specifically excludes 18 USC 930 from applying to the Postal Service Authority. In addition, 39 CFR 232.1 clearly states "Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes."

This means not only is it Illegal to have them on your person, it is also illegal to have it in your car OUTSIDE. An earlier thread post stated that a man would just remain outside while his wife took the mail into the office to mail. The second his vehicle crosses the threshold of postal property, regardless of where he stands or his intent, he is automatically in violation of federal law. In addition, the US Postal Service has explicit right to search any person or vehicle on postal property at any time.

If someone is SUSPECT of having a gun in his CAR...and postal inspectors arrive....they have the right to detain the car, and search. All this is granted the US Postal Inspection Service. IN ADDITION, THE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL IS ONE OF ONLY A FEW GOVERNMENT BRANCHES THAT HAS THE EXPLICIT AUTHORITY TO INCARCERATE FOR POSTAL CRIMES.

In addition, I have read in other threads such things as what if the sign is not "conspicuously displayed" or if the office is rented or leased. Failure to have the sign "conspicuously displayed" may only give you a defense against long term incarceration. keep in mind that federal bulletin boards INSIDE the postal facility are still considered CONSPICUOUS. If you were discovered to have a concealed weapon on postal property and the authorities are notified, they will, citing federal statue, handcuff you and take you to jail. Rented or leased property that is leased by the federal government is also enforced by the same rights and laws as owned federal property as it is government controlled by the contract signed with the USPS.

If you go to a place like your local hardware store, and it has a post office in the back, then carrying a firearm into a facility in which USPS is operating makes that place also protected by the same regulations.....therefore making it illegal to carry into that facility as well.

There are few things I tell people NOT to do when it comes to the post office. As a union steward and mail carrier, I find that I am often best served by questioning everything. But in all seriousness.....as unfair as it is......as seemingly unconstitutional as it may be.....do NOT pull into the parking lot of a post office....sign or no sign......rented or not.....etc....with a firearm in your possession.

Finally...one of the best explanations of the application of these regulations was on a michigan message board. I have enclosed the link below.

If you read sites that state "official purpose" is a way to challenge it, investigate further. You will find that 39 CFR 232.1 supercedes 18 USC 930 and gives all authority to the Post Office....and closes any possibility of a loophole ever existing.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Concealed-carry-in-a-post-office-may-lead-to-rude-awakening

my response to this is always the same. it is legal to mail a long gun through the usps. how does one propose getting said firearm into the mail if you can't bring it into the office?
 

warrior1978

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
64
Location
, ,
my response to this is always the same. it is legal to mail a long gun through the usps. how does one propose getting said firearm into the mail if you can't bring it into the office?

My guess is that if you are mailing a firearm you fall under "official purposes".

I am very curious to know if there is ANY case law at the federal appeals level with respect to someone being charged with possession of a firearm on postal property.
 
Last edited:

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
My guess is that if you are mailing a firearm you fall under "official purposes".

I am very curious to know if there is ANY case law at the federal appeals level with respect to someone being charged with possession of a firearm on postal property.

Just last year an employee of the USPS was convicted of possession of a firearm on postal property. I've seen this case used as "proof" that a person will be successfully convicted. I believe, though, the person was an employee; the court denied his post-Heller 2A argument. It is an interesting case nonetheless, and I suggest that anyone interested in the subject to actually read the ruling... case was "U.S v Dorosan".

Additionally, there is a case right now in Colorado where the USPS prohibition is being challenged by two individuals, I think husband and wife, who are required to get their mail from the post office as opposed to having home delivery. As far as I know, this case is still ongoing:
http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2010/10/challenge-to-ban-on-firearms-on-postal.html
 
Last edited:

Super Trucker

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
263
Location
Wayne County, MI.
The USPS is a service that is no longer needed as far as I am concerned. If more people thought the same, silly laws like this would no longer be needed as they would prove "the people" do not accept such behavior.
Bills can be paid without the need of USPS, packages sent without their need, e-mail for communication. PO Boxes can be had at private location (mail box etc as an example).
 
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