CC or Oc in Banks, Post Offices

SpringerXDacp · Aug 2, 2006

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Does anyone really know the laws pertaining to carrying (CC or OC) in banks & post offices in Michigan? Some sites (State Police, Packing.org& NRA) do not specifically indicate these places as being off limits. Federal firearm laws indicate that they are. I read an article once-written by a lawyer-that explained in great detail that post offices were not off limits. I do not remember the web site-a forum maybe?

jimwyant · Aug 2, 2006

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This is probably the website that you were referring to: http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-usps.html

If this lawyer is correct in his interpretation of the federal laws, you may carry in post offices unless otherwise prohibited by a state or local law. There is no federal law prohibiting carry in retail banks, so it is up to individual states or the banks themselves to prohibit it.

I took a look at the firearms laws on michigan.gov, and I found: 750.234d, Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution... Subsection (2) (c) exempts CCW permit holders from this regulation. I can't find anything prohibiting carry in a post office. I am not a lawyer, but it would seem to me that if you have a CCW license, you would be at the mercy of your bank's policies, and the official interpretation of the CFR pertaining to post office carry.

VA does not have a law against either, so I do carry when I go to my post office. I CC, and pay particular attention to avoid printing, simply because I'd rather not be the test case. I have OC'ed at a couple different banks with no problems, but many of the larger banks in my area have posted policies against it.

Jim Simmons · Aug 10, 2006

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Banks: Open carry is prohibited. Concealed carry, by CPL holders, is legal. Only exception: The Federal Reserve Bank in downtown Detroit. Also, any other bank may by sign or other notice, prohibit concealed carry on their premises. If you carry there, it's not a violation of the concealed pistol law, but it would constitute trespass.

Post Office: Open and concealed carry is prohibited by federal statute and regulation. Yes, there's a bit of wiggle room in the language; enough so to create a real defense for someone foolish enough to try it. But were it to fail, that person would be subject to a federal felony. I don't recommend trying it.

Jim Simmons

jtsimmons@jtsimmons.com

cs9c1 · Aug 10, 2006

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OK how do I go about finding out if you can carry in a Post Office or not?

molonlabetn · Aug 10, 2006

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cs9c1 wrote:

OK how do I go about finding out if you can carry in a Post Office or not?

Scroll down to page 58, under (L): Title 39, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 232.1

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may
carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either
openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for
official purposes.

Also: http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/posters/pos158/welcome.htm

Those will give you some idea... Basically, don't do it unless you've got a month you don't mind blowing in a federal 'boarding' facility. But, the bright side is that the fine is only $50 (plus the penalty ofany local of state laws)!

Of course... There is always concealed carry, since 'concealed' means truly concealed.

molonlabetn

Arizonatexan · Aug 12, 2006

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My wife and I took the CCW for Arizona today. The topic of carrying in banks came up. The instructor told us an interesting story. In Arizona it's OK to carry open or concealing in a bank unless a sign is posted or they ask you not to once you are inside. He said there was only one bank in town that did not allow guns (and he told us which one). This is the only bank in town that has ever been robbed - apparently several times! Some people just don't get it - do they?

norahc · Aug 12, 2006

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molonlabetn wrote:

cs9c1 wrote:

OK how do I go about finding out if you can carry in a Post Office or not?

Click to expand...

Scroll down to page 58, under (L): Title 39, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 232.1

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may
carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either
openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for
official purposes.

Click to expand...

molonlabetn

But doesn't it have to be a violation of the United States Code for it to be a felony? The part you quoted comes from the Code of Federal Regulations which is more of an administrative (vs. criminal) law. Also note that the CFR is more restrictive than the USC:

CFR: "except for official purposes."

USC: "or other lawful purposes."

All in all, I don't want to be the test case for this.

Gray Peterson · Aug 13, 2006

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Jim Simmons wrote:

Banks: Open carry is prohibited. Concealed carry, by CPL holders, is legal. Only exception: The Federal Reserve Bank in downtown Detroit. Also, any other bank may by sign or other notice, prohibit concealed carry on their premises. If you carry there, it's not a violation of the concealed pistol law, but it would constitute trespass.

Post Office: Open and concealed carry is prohibited by federal statute and regulation. Yes, there's a bit of wiggle room in the language; enough so to create a real defense for someone foolish enough to try it. But were it to fail, that person would be subject to a federal felony. I don't recommend trying it.

Jim Simmons

jtsimmons@jtsimmons.com

Open carry by someone without a CPL is illegal in a bank you mean.

novaccw · Aug 13, 2006

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Banks are just like any other private business, they can chose to post and you can chose to take your money elsewhere. The only bank that I have open carried in was Chevy Chase Bank in Old Town Alexandria. No questions, comments or problems...just a nice helpful staff. *Note: I was using their free change machine, so they weren't even making any money from me.*

novaccw · Aug 13, 2006

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Sorry I thought this was a VA forum...please disregard my comments...I will be more careful next time!! Admin...feel free to take this down.

Big Gay Al · Aug 28, 2006

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Technically, you can open carry in a Michigan bank if you have a CPL, but as Jim Simmons has said, most County PAs will not see it that way. Most bank officials won't see it that way either, and I for sure would not want to open carry in a Michigan bank that has an armed guard. It's a receipe for disaster.

All things considered, since in Michigan, you can't drive with an openly carried pistol, as it's considered concealed, I'd get the CPL anyway, and keep it covered.

The interesting thing I noticed, if I wore my gun, while wearing a security guard uniform, no one seemed to care.

You might get away with it in some rural areas, but knowing which ones, that's the question.

Venator · Aug 15, 2007

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jimwyant wrote:

This is probably the website that you were referring to: http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-usps.html

If this lawyer is correct in his interpretation of the federal laws, you may carry in post offices unless otherwise prohibited by a state or local law. There is no federal law prohibiting carry in retail banks, so it is up to individual states or the banks themselves to prohibit it.

I took a look at the firearms laws on michigan.gov, and I found: 750.234d, Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution... Subsection (2) (c) exempts CCW permit holders from this regulation. I can't find anything prohibiting carry in a post office. I am not a lawyer, but it would seem to me that if you have a CCW license, you would be at the mercy of your bank's policies, and the official interpretation of the CFR pertaining to post office carry.

VA does not have a law against either, so I do carry when I go to my post office. I CC, and pay particular attention to avoid printing, simply because I'd rather not be the test case. I have OC'ed at a couple different banks with no problems, but many of the larger banks in my area have posted policies against it.

The above website is currentley down and has thisstatement posted below. Looks as if some revisions are being made. It would be nice if someone could follow up on the new clause proposed.

"The Concealed Carry in the Post Office
Analysis by Robert P. Firriolo, Esq. usually at
this URL has been removed pending a review
in light of recently revised U.S.P.S. regulations,
specifically a new introductory clause to 232.1."

apjonas · Aug 15, 2007

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Here is the old regulation:

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

Here is the new regulation with important stuff highlighted:

(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

If there was a loophole, it's gone now. Forget about the USC section. The code gives USPS power over its facilities and this specific power trumps the implication of the more general statute.

Venator · Aug 15, 2007

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apjonas wrote:

Here is the old regulation:

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

Here is the new regulation with important stuff highlighted:

(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

If there was a loophole, it's gone now. Forget about the USC section. The code gives USPS power over its facilities and this specific power trumps the implication of the more general statute.

Okay, but what are official purposes? What are the exceptions? Are official purposes defined?

Big Gay Al · Aug 15, 2007

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According to a guy I know, who's a lawyer, and is into guns, DO NOT try to carry, concealed, open or otherwise in a Post Office. It's considered Federal property, and you'd be facing federal felony conviction.

Of course, that's just his advice.

apjonas · Aug 15, 2007

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Venator wrote:

Okay, but what are official purposes? What are the exceptions? Are official purposes defined?

If you have to ask then you don't have one. There is probably a definition somewhere, if not the judge will provide one, and I guarantee it won't include personal defense. Forget it.

tarzan1888 · Aug 19, 2007

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cs9c1 wrote:

OK how do I go about finding out if you can carry in a Post Office or not?

I had a Post Master tell me face to face that it was a federal offence to have a handgun in a post office.

I was inquiring about sending gun parts back to the manufacturer at the time. I had broken the gun down into parts and was attempting to send two packages, each containing part of the gun.

He told me that the fact that I had parts that added up to a complete gun, in the Post Office,was a federal offence.

The BATF had told me that I could do it that way. They called and talked to the BATF officer who I had talked to and this is the only thing that kept me from being arrested.

This Post Master would not even accept the parts of a gun.

It doesn't matter what is legal or what I believe is legal. According to him, this is what they have been told and they believe it is a federal offence.

If they see you carry, in the Post Office,they will have you arrested and then you will find out for sure.

They will never see me carry in a Post Office. :uhoh:

who_dat · Sep 11, 2007

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If the federal government owns the building the postal service occupies, you cannot carry. If not, you can at the discretion of the postmaster. That's how it was explained to me by the ex chief of police and NRA instructor.

Addendum: This is wrong...any property under the control whether owned, leased, or otherwise, is off limits to weapons, concealed or not. Sorry for my previous post.

blk · Sep 11, 2007

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cs9c1 wrote:

OK how do I go about finding out if you can carry in a Post Office or not?

Go into the post office, unarmed, and look at the bulliten board. There will be an 8.5"X11" page posted with various rules and notices on it. One of the rules states that no weapons, firearms, knives, bombs, etc. are permitted on post office property. So if you left it in the car to go inside to read the rules, you are breaking the law as I do every time I go to the post office six days every week.

I hope they have not highjacked this ISP...:what:

Big Gay Al · Sep 12, 2007

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blk wrote:

cs9c1 wrote:

OK how do I go about finding out if you can carry in a Post Office or not?

Click to expand...

Go into the post office, unarmed, and look at the bulliten board. There will be an 8.5"X11" page posted with various rules and notices on it. One of the rules states that no weapons, firearms, knives, bombs, etc. are permitted on post office property. So if you left it in the car to go inside to read the rules, you are breaking the law as I do every time I go to the post office six days every week.

I hope they have not highjacked this ISP...:what:

Only if the Post Office happens to own the parking lot also.

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