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Thread: Gun Stolen...while being open carried! [Update 5/2010: story debunked]

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    From VCDL's current newsletter:
    
    2.  Man robbed of openly carried handgun - lessons learned
    *******************************************************
    
    There is no substitute for being alert, regardless of the time of
    day.  A gun, or any other means of self-defense, can best save your
    life if you are NOT caught unaware.  There might be more to the
    story, but the 21 year old below seems to have been surprised by two
    individuals who came from behind him.  At 4 AM, he might have thought
    he was safe.
    
    Not so.  Luckily he got away with his life.
    
    Remember, whenever you carry your firearm openly, YOU MUST BE ALERT
    TO ANYONE OR ANYTHING NEAR YOU.  Be alert and be safe -- your mind is
    the weapon, your gun is just a tool.  Don't be caught napping!
    
    Thanks to Jim Charlton, and others, for the link:
    
    http://tinyurl.com/om4bx
    
    From Potomac News Police Briefs August 1, 2006
    
    A 21-year-old Centreville-area man was robbed while walking on Newton
    Patent Drive in Centreville, Fairfax County Police said.  About 4:10
    a.m. Sunday, two suspects approached the victim from behind, and
    placed a metal object up to his head, said police. The robbers took
    the man's handgun, which he was openly carrying, and ran away. He was
    not injured. The robbers were described as black males wearing dark
    clothing.
    
    Anyone with information about this incident or the robbers is asked
    to call Crime Solvers at 1-866-411-TIPS (8477) or the police
    non-emergency number at (703) 691-2131.

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    Lessons Learned:

    1) Condition Yellow

    Alertness is paramount!

    2) Carry a backup gun

    Carry a *concealed* backup gun.

    3) OC holsters should have a retention device

    If you can slow down the removal of your handgun, then you have some extra time to react.

    4) Learn to fight unarmed

    Combatives, as unarmed fighting is called, are important! If you know what to do when someone presses a weapon against your back or head, you'll have a better chance of winning.

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    This was discussed in the VA section. But it's good to spread to other's that do not visit VA's area.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/376.html
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    cREbralFIX wrote:
    Lessons Learned:

    1) Condition Yellow

    Alertness is paramount!

    2) Carry a backup gun

    Carry a *concealed* backup gun.

    3) OC holsters should have a retention device

    If you can slow down the removal of your handgun, then you have some extra time to react.

    4) Learn to fight unarmed

    Combatives, as unarmed fighting is called, are important! If you know what to do when someone presses a weapon against your back or head, you'll have a better chance of winning.
    Interesting. A concealed backup gun. Accessable by using your weak hand only, your strong hand will be busy keeping your gun in it's holster. No two handed draw from concealment allowed, must have a fast one hand access. Can be very small, even preferably, so the barrel can't be grabbed and deflected. Only meant to persuade or wound enough to stop the attempted gun grab.

    Retention holster is a must. Condition 2 carry just to buy more time as the perp trys to figure out how to work the safety.

    Thoughts?

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    cREbralFIX wrote:
    4) Learn to fight unarmed

    Combatives, as unarmed fighting is called, are important! If you know what to do when someone presses a weapon against your back or head, you'll have a better chance of winning.
    While taking Driver's Ed waaay back when I was impressed with a machine they had everyone try. It was a driver's seat, steering wheel and brake pedal, with a red light and a timer. You would sit there and wait for the red light to come on, with your foot off the brake pedal. As soon as the light came on you would hit the brake pedal as fast as you could. Even "knowing" what was going to happen IIRC it would take around 0.3 seconds to hit the brakes.

    Now you had to move your foot but being 15 I could do that pretty quick. In the situation with a gun to the back of your head could you actually deflect it before the guy shoots? Would you want to try without serious practice? And how fast could you draw?

    If someone was coming up behind me and I was OCing the best thing to do might be to step aside at the ready and let them pass. Or cross over to the other side of the street before they get anywhere near you to put distance between you and them. If they then cross over too double back, if they follow again you know damn well their intent is not good.

    Thoughts?

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    Regular Member Beau's Avatar
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    cREbralFIX wrote:
    Lessons Learned:

    1) Condition Yellow

    Alertness is paramount!

    2) Carry a backup gun

    Carry a *concealed* backup gun.

    3) OC holsters should have a retention device

    If you can slow down the removal of your handgun, then you have some extra time to react.

    4) Learn to fight unarmed

    Combatives, as unarmed fighting is called, are important! If you know what to do when someone presses a weapon against your back or head, you'll have a better chance of winning.
    Unless your just that fast I don't think a BUG would have done much good in this guys situation. Once the criminals had his gun and were running away. I assume that since he was no longer in danger he would not be justified in drawing another weapon and engaging bad guys.
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

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    Neplusultra wrote:
    In the situation with a gun to the back of your head could you actually deflect it before the guy shoots? Would you want to try without serious practice? And how fast could you draw?
    I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the reaction time issue works in your favor in this case, because you are controlling the "red light" and it's the guy with the gun that has to react. Of course, all he has to do is twitch his finger, not move his foot to a pedal and press, but if most of that 0.3 seconds is "think time", then it seems like you've got a pretty good chance.

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    one word: Serpa.

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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    I think I saw something in the news about there being a lot more to this story. I will see if I can find it. Until then, anyone else remember the followup?

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    From the Fairfax County PD

    http://tinyurl.com/yulp7n

    more to follow

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    Carolina40 wrote:
    one word: Serpa.
    That way NO ONE can get the gun out! :P

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    When open carrying you must have complete awareness of your surroundings at all times and have a built in red and yellow zone. Otherwise you can become a victim and learn a very hard lesson like this young man just did. This young man could have used some extra training in preventing being unholstered. This is done with both lecture and practical exercises. Most police academies train their academy students in this area where students and faculty try to steal your gun out of your holster, even in teams. Yes this is done with a toy realistic looking rubber gun of course since the attempts are quite aggressive and real. I do feel for the guy. This is a good daily lesson in not ever letting our guard down when open carrying.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    swillden wrote:
    Neplusultra wrote:
    In the situation with a gun to the back of your head could you actually deflect it before the guy shoots? Would you want to try without serious practice? And how fast could you draw?
    I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the reaction time issue works in your favor in this case, because you are controlling the "red light" and it's the guy with the gun that has to react. Of course, all he has to do is twitch his finger, not move his foot to a pedal and press, but if most of that 0.3 seconds is "think time", then it seems like you've got a pretty good chance.
    Oh, I think you could do it, most likely even without a lot of practice, that is deflect the gun without getting shot. You might get a defening gun blast to the ear. But the problem is what next? You have to draw and fire before he can get his gun back on target. My best times are between 1.2 and 1.5 seconds to draw, aim COM at 21 feet, fire. Of course you can take out almost all of the "aim" time which is usally the majority of the draw/fire time but still......

    Far better not to get yourself in the situation in the first place.

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    Hmm anyone walking up behind me at 4:10 a.m is going to have my full attention.If you are awareenough of the need to OC a firearm you better be aware enough of your surroundings, including behind you. Retention holster is a great idea.



    Having said that. I have been on the receiving end of something metal stuck up to the back of my head.For me it was a couple ofpunks trying to get a $2000.00 mountain bikeI was riding at the time. Everything you think you would do goes right out the window.I was not carrying at the time as I was heading home after a ride with friends. Luckily for me the idiot tripped on my pedal smashed his face on my rear wheel and off I went. Not even sure he had a gun. That was the event that started me carrying...

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    Alertness at all times is impossible.

    Just looking down to put the key in a car's door lock shrinks your sphere of attention to your hand and the lock. My experience with this was a jogger came "out of nowhere"...between the time I stepped off the curb and reached the car, she "just appeared."

    It's the way things are.

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    Carolina40 wrote:
    one word: Serpa.
    That is SO true. I was disarmed by a female officer due to the fact that I was OCing and that she thought I was commiting an illegal act. I had to Instruct her AFTER she had been yanking on my Kimber for about 10 seconds to get it out. I LOVE SERPA. IT'S EVEN COP PROOF:celebrate.

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    This never happened. I don't know if it's the first urban legend on OCDO, but I can say that it's one of them. If you want to know more I can put you in touch with FCPD that is in charge of the issue. There is a gun and it does belong to the guy, but he wasn't robbed, that's what I was told.FCPD haven't issued a correction to the story and I don't know that they will, I was going to ask but figured after my conversation it wasn't needed.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    So the Fairfax County Police Department Public Information Office put a non-existent crime, complete with requests for crime stopper calls on their own web site? :shock:
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    cREbralFIX wrote:
    4) Learn to fight unarmed
    A good Self Defense Course for women is called RAD Women - just goggle it. It dosen't teach about how to take a gun away if it is pointed at your head, but there is some really good techniques they use that normally you wouldn't think of. RAD stands for RAPE, AGGRESSION, DEFENSE. I really enjoyed this class and would like to take their advanced course. You basically learn how to escape and get away is the objective.
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    bohdi, Are you sure FCPD even knew what you were talking about? This incident was 1.5 years ago.

    This thread has been dead an equally long time.

    let dead threads stay dead!!!!!!!!!!
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    deepdiver wrote:
    So the Fairfax County Police Department Public Information Office put a non-existent crime, complete with requests for crime stopper calls on their own web site? :shock:
    After they had posted the initial report, the individual who was robbed was found to actually have the weapon in his possession at his domicile, in a drawer.FCPD were apparently at the guys house for an unrelated search, and filing a false report is the least of the guys' worries at this point, as I was told. No correction has been made in the paper because they are still finishing/going to court on the other matter which carries a heavier penalty. I didn't ask for further details, I found out what I wanted, which was this story was either true or false. It ended up being false.

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    bohdi, Are you sure FCPD even knew what you were talking about? This incident was 1.5 years ago.

    This thread has been dead an equally long time.

    let dead threads stay dead!!!!!!!!!!
    Yeah, they knew. The person I spoke with wanted to know why I was asking about something that happened so long ago. I told him it came up on the internet and that I never saw any resolution printed in the paper. See my previous response as to why that is.


    I didn't bring this up, lol. I agree with you, dead threads ought to stay dead. We can now say it's really dead, as it's actually been "resolved" and is no longer something a person can say "....I remember a while back that some guy OC'ing in Va got mugged and had his gun stolen, so OC isn't safe...." sort of thing.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    OK, I finally heard back fro FFX Co PD on the "gun grab" story from 2006 in Centreville VA, and got the REAL story in writing (well, email).

    This story turned out to be a "false report". Here is the official word from Fairfax Co. PD (I've edited all the "personal" info to "sterilize" the report):

    Generally speaking we do not release police incident reports, therefore you will not find an archive on our web site. I was able to locate the case you refer to. A supplement written on July 30, 2006 indicates that the original "victim" who reported the crime was charged with filing a false police report. His name is Xxxxx Xxxxxxx Xxx, 23 of XXXX Xxxxxxx Xxxxx Xxx in Centreville (at the time the supplement was written). I do not know the disposition of the court case, you would need to contact the court for that information. Their contact number is 703-246-2221.

    Don Xxxxxxxxx
    Fairfax County Police Department
    Public Information Office
    Web Content Manager
    4100 Chain Bridge Road
    Fairfax, Virginia 22030
    Direct Line: (703) 246-2253
    Office Fax: (703) 246-4253



    Now, can we PLEASE dismiss this story as an "urban myth" once and for all?

    At least now we can now say, without a doubt, that there are NO known documentable cases of a citizen who was OCing having their gun stolen in a "gun grab" situation.

    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Always seemed to be something fishy about that story.

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