Well, I guess your response to a question of "are you an LEO" is probably, "No, I'm just a girl" (as opposed to "No, I'm just a guy").
Thread: Open carry in Moscow, ID
Well, my boyfriend (Mike) and used this site extensively as we embarked on our quest to open carry, so when I saw there were no stories for Idaho I figured it was my duty to share mine.
We have been OCing around Moscow, ID for a couple months now. I have a Springfield XD-40 Sub-Compact that I carry in a kydex hip holster, and he has a Beretta 96 .40 that he also carries on his hip.
So far we really haven't run into any problems. We checked and double-checked online resources that told us where we could and couldn't go (pretty basic in Idaho, really, no bars, schools, the usual) and talked to a few LEO's to make sure. (No resistance there, they just had the "WHY would you want to do that?!" or "Why don't you just get a CCW?" attitude.)
I've only been asked about the gun once. Well, technically twice. The first time, I was in the grocery store and ran into a guy Mike works with. We were chatting and he glanced down at my hip and saw the XD. His eyes got wide and he half-yelled "WHY DO YOU HAVE THAT!?" I was kind of concerned that he was going to call attention to me with such a reaction, but nobody really responded. It was at this point that I realized explaining OC reasons to someone I know is in many ways harder than explaining it to someone I don't know. Someone I don't know can make a lot of assumptions (like maybe I was attacked in the past) that helps to rationalize away any discomfort. Someone who knows me better is just wondering what in the heck the Laurel they know is doing with a gun! Anyway, I ran through a list of reasons (being a local, he gave me the whole "You're totally not going to run into violent crime here" argument) and had a bit of banter back and forth. He asked if I had a "gun permit" and I explained that I don't need one. I learned that he had been shooting once and nobody had explained to him the mechanics of a double-action trigger. He thought something was wrong with the gun after firing once, and aimed it in an unsafe direction as he pulled the trigger again. Apparently he "almost shot somebody" and is thereby uncomfortable with guns. I just smiled and explained that I've never almost shot anybody and am not uncomfortable with guns, so I guess we're okay.
My real first question from a stranger, ironically, came just a few minutes later as I was checking out of the same grocery store. I was bagging my groceries and I heard a voice beside me say "Are you a cop?" I looked over to see a guy who was probably in his late twenties looking inquisitive, but not alarmed. I explained no, I carry in self-defense. He said "Well, that's not something you see every day in the grocery store!" and I agreed, then said "But I'd like to change that." We had a short conversation and walked out together as I talked about raising awareness about firearms and trying to change the negative ideas about gun owners and OCers. He later said "Yeah, I'm getting one myself, for my job" (I assume by "one" he meant a pistol) and when I asked what he did, he said "I'm a pilot, we carry them on the flight line." I didn't find out more than that but all in all he was very polite and didn't seem troubled by my OCing at all.
So - that's really the extent of it so far. I'm going on a trip with my mother late in September and provided I can get my handgun to the airport in the first place (some problems with WA laws, I'll probably post about that elsewhere) I will get the opportunity to OC through UT, WY, and maybe a bit of CO. This site has been an excellent resource as I check into which places respect my RKBA and to what extent - I look forward to sharing more stories (hopefully all positive) as they come up!
Well, I guess your response to a question of "are you an LEO" is probably, "No, I'm just a girl" (as opposed to "No, I'm just a guy").
Indeed. It kind of made me laugh, too, because I REALLY don't think I look like the LEO type. I'm about 5'4", 120 lbs, and not very imposing.
Another lady packer? Good job!
Welcome to OCDO,Madam. Great to see another lady taking responsibility for her own safety,and doing so openly, without having to resort to the furtive behaviour of the concealed carry crowd.
If this sounds harsh, I must admit that I am a little down on concealed carry at the moment. Too much nonsense going on in KY right now about CDWLs.
No matter.Open carry with pride, as I and the other guys who post here do.
Thanks for the welcome. After just a couple months of open carry, I can't imagine many reasons why I'd want to conceal. The only "good" one I can come up with is if I'm in a place where open carry is prohibited... but I do my best to avoid those kind of places at all costs, anyway!
I used to have every intention of getting my CCW once I turned 21 and was eligible. I now have such an appreciation for the benefits of OC that I don't know why I'd want to... Not only is it an automatic deterrent, but the last thing I want to deal with if I'm attacked is trying to get my pistol out of my purse/waistband/etc. I'm not a big gal and it's likely a larger man could overpower me before I had the chance to draw from a concealed location. Not to mention that I don't always wear clothing or carry a purse that would provide me a place to conceal - whereas I usually have a waistband and can wear a belt with my pistol displayed.
I also recognize, as a woman, the additional power I have to chance the face of OC/arms ownership. I like showing people the "softer, gentler" side of people who pack! I also seem to have a better ability to put people at ease than some gruff men I know. If I can change minds in addition to protecting myself and what's important to me, well... all the more reason to wear it proudly.
My aunt and uncle live in Moscow and we'll be visiting there sometime soon. What are the limits? Do you see many folks OC'ing?
I just wrote a big, long post in reply and managed to kill it somewhere in my mess of browser windows. This will be a shorter version.
Regarding carry in Idaho - first off, I'm not a lawyer, nor is this meant to be taken as legal advice, blah blah... Based on my personal research and inquiry, however, here's what you CAN'T do:
1. You CAN'T carry on school grounds, including the University of Idaho. Essentially, the only legal way to have a firearm there is either on your person or otherwise possessed as you're in a vehicle, dropping someone off, or locked in your vehicle and "displayed in a non-threatening manner."
2. You CAN'T carry in such a manner that your firearm is not distinguishable by ordinary observation. If it's not clear that it's a firearm, you can get nabbed for concealed carry without a permit. Use your judgement.
3. I have been TOLD that you cannot carry in the following places, in addition to a school:
- Juvenile detention facility
- Government building
- Bar, or bar area of an establishment (if the main purpose of the place/area is to serve alcohol, it's a bar)
- While intoxicated
HOWEVER, I cannot find the place in the law that confirms this. Juvie, jail and while intoxicated are specifically prohibited places/things while CONCEALING. I have not yet confirmed if it applies to open carry or not. Until I confirm one way or another, that's the rules I run with. The government building and bar thing were told to me by LEO's. I can't find anything in the law that confirms that for either OC or concealed. Again, until I find out otherwise, that's what I personally run with.
4. Idaho has state level preemption. Cities and counties are allowed to make laws about the discharge of firearms, but NOT posession. It IS legal to openly carry a firearm, loaded or unloaded, in the state of Idaho.
5. You must be 18 to be in possession of a handgun.
6. You can have a loaded gun in a vehicle as long as it is not concealed - in order for you to conceal a gun in your car, it needs to be unloaded or disassembled.
That's all the pertinent information that comes to mind. Feel free to ask me about anything else - I'll answer if I can.
As for whether or not a lot of people open carry... short answer: no. I've seen a grand total of three. Mike, myself, and our friend Garth once when we all went out to lunch after going out shooting. However, don't let that discourage you. PLEASE, carry when you come here! Part of the reason we do it is to make it more common and accepted, so join in!
Just remember: be polite, and respect the wishes of private property owners. If you are asked to leave a store or put your gun in the car, that kind of thing, ask if it's store policy, then ask why it's not posted, request that they DO post it, and leave. Don't give 'em your money - and let them know that you have a network of people who support your RKBA, and you will let them know to take their money elsewhere, too. Then, let me know! We have quite a few friends on our side, even ones who don't OC, and they WILL stop shopping there. You've got backup, don't worry.
One last thing to keep in mind: you are dangerously close to the WA border when in Moscow. Pullman is only eight miles away, and the border is right outside the west side of town. Make absolutely sure that you are aware of the boundary and the laws on the other side. They're not friendly. I do not OC in Pullman, EVER!
Oh yeah - if you happen to have a CCW, Idaho does recognize all other states permits as long as they are valid and on your person.
Keep in touch and let us know how your OC experience goes when you visit!
I'd CCW most likely, but OC is just so much fun!
thanks for OC'ing around Moscow. I OC alot around Boise, and yes, I've had a few run-ins w/ LE. Some good, some not so good. My bro and another friend also OC and have some experiences I'll share later. I know I'm new here... but I've got a few corrections for you about where you can and can't carry as well as ages etc.
You CAN carry at a University or College, so long as it isn't a private school (private property rules apply - tresspassing). Idaho law says you can't carry on "public or private school" property. Our attorney general, Lawrence Wasden defines schools as K-12. He goes farther by specifically stating that it's OK/LEGAL to carry on University/College campuses. I've personally emailed him and spoken with him, so if you don't believe me, email him and ask... usually get a reply within a day or two. Most schools like BSU and UI have "administrative rules" against weapons. This has no force of law as they are publicly funded and thus can't ban weapons as it is contrary to state law... per Att. Gen. Wasden. Even so, technically if UI were able to enforce their illegal rule (which they can't), then all they could do would be to ask you to leave and if you didn't then charge you with trespassing. That is worst case scenario.
You CAN carry in a BAR. You CAN NOT be intoxicated... same standards as DUI. Common sense says don't even drink at all while carrying. Period.
You can possess or carry a handgun while under 18 years of age... but you MUST have ON YOUR PERSON written permission from a guardian or parent, and I believe be over 14 or somewhere around there.
The only places off limits to carry in Idaho are where the Feds prohibit it:
Sterile area of Airport
Courthouses, jails, etc
federal property (post office, fbi, etc)
Don't EVER ask a LE about the OC or CC laws. They don't know, and/or usually have an agenda, and thus just repeat what their captain told them which is usually tainted by what they'd like to see happen as opposed to what is law.
Lastly, OC as much as you can... sounds like you've got the conviction and guts to do so. Dress nice... so you don't look like a vagabond ... thus you give gun-owners a positive image. maybe later I'll share a few stories...
If you want a good read.. go to BSU's student paper... a student recently OC'd on campus... http://www.arbiteronline.com, opinion section and go to "callin out the cops."
Thank you for the additional information! I was actually planning on contacting Lawrence Wasden this week to get some clarification on these issues... I'm going to go ahead and do that, just for personal purposes, but it's good to hear that it's been done and the news is good. I'm especially excited about what you said about carrying on campus - out of all the places in Moscow I am concerned about actually encountering an assault, campus is probably #1, especially at night. If I can carry there, I'll be one happy packer.
The only dispute I have with your information is over the handgun age. Here are the relevant statues:
Code:TITLE 18 CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS CHAPTER 33 FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS 18-3302E. POSSESSION OF A WEAPON BY A MINOR. (1) It shall be unlawful for any person under the age of eighteen (18) years to possess or have in possession any weapon, as defined in section 18-3302A, Idaho Code, unless he: (a) Has the written permission of his parent or guardian to possess the weapon; or (b) Is accompanied by his parent or guardian while he has the weapon in his possession. (2) Any minor under the age of twelve (12) years in possession of a weapon shall be accompanied by an adult. (3) Any person who violates the provisions of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.What you said about a permission note appears to be correct in the case of a rifle orCode:TITLE 18 CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS CHAPTER 33 FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS 18-3302F. PROHIBITION OF POSSESSION OF CERTAIN WEAPONS BY A MINOR. (1) It shall be unlawful for any person under the age of eighteen (18) years to possess or have in possession any handgun. (2) Except as provided by federal law, a minor under the age of eighteen (18) years may not possess the following: (a) A sawed-off rifle or sawed-off shotgun; or (b) A full automatic weapon. (3) Any person who violates the provisions of subsection (2) (a) of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor. (4) Any person who violates the provisions of subsection (2) (b) of this section is guilty of a felony. (5) For purposes of this section: (a) "Full automatic weapon" means any firearm which fires, is designed to fire, or can be readily restored to fire, automatically more than one (1) bullet, or other missile without reloading, by a single function of the trigger. (b) "Handgun" means a pistol, revolver, or other firearm of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which any shot, bullet, or other missile can be discharged, the length of the barrel of which, not including any revolving, detachable, or magazine breech, does not exceed twelve (12) inches. Excluded from this definition are handguns firing a metallic projectile, such as a BB or pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO pressure, or spring action or any spot marker gun. (6) Any person who provides a handgun to a minor when the possession of the handgun by the minor is a violation of the provisions of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor. TITLE 18 CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS CHAPTER 33 FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS 18-3302G. EXCEPTIONS. The provisions of section 18-3302E, Idaho Code, regarding the possession of a weapon by a minor or section 18-3302F, Idaho Code, regarding possession of handguns by minors shall not apply to any of the following: (1) Patrons firing at lawfully operated target concessions at amusement parks and similar locations provided that the firearms to be used are firmly chained or affixed to the counters; (2) Any person in attendance at a hunter's safety course or a firearm's safety course; (3) Any person engaging in practice or any other lawful use of a firearm at an established range or any other area where the discharge of a firearm is not prohibited by state or local law; (4) Any person engaging in an organized competition involving the use of a firearm, or participating in or practicing for such competition; (5) Any minor under eighteen (18) years of age who is on real property with the permission of the owner, licensee, or lessee of the property and who has the permission of a parent or legal guardian or the owner, licensee, or lessee to possess a firearm not otherwise in violation of the law; (6) Any resident or nonresident hunters with a valid hunting license or other persons who are lawfully engaged in hunting; and (7) Any person traveling to or from any activity described in subsection (2), (3), (4), (5) or (6) of this section with an unloaded firearm in his possession.
shotgun under 18-3302E, but handguns are specifically prohibited under 18-3302F, and not excepted under 18-3302G unless in conjunction with a shooting event or on private property. If I am misreading this please feel free to correct me; I have a feeling it doesn't apply to the majority of folks at OC.org anyway, but I want to have all my facts straight.
Thanks for pointing me to the Arbiter article. I just posted a comment in response. I will post more in the future as I conquer the campus barrier!
thanks for doing your research... It's been a while for me, since I've looked up all those laws... I guess it was my brother who was packing under 18 years old with written permission... mostly it was in the car, (no round in the chamber), and only a handful of times was it true OC. He ALWAYS carried a couple of extra targets in the back of his honda, as well as eye/ear protection and had his hunting license on him. Guess why?
Also, if you have any responsible friends who are 18-21 and want a CWP, the state of Maine is a shall issue state to those 18 and up, and it can be done via the mail system... and it's valid in Idaho! This withstood the test of cops twice for my bro, as well as clarified by Wasden.
thanks again Laurel, BTW, do you have any single female friends who OC? I'm looking for a GF.
What is this, a dating agency?
I'll take the same as our new comrade, the Corsair, but don't tell the wife!
BTW, welcome to OCDO, Sir, and may your quest for a nubile pistol-packing lovely prove fruitful! Laurel, pleasehelp the guy out!
Thanks for the greet Brit.... LOL... dating service, that was good!
Ok, so maybe I was a bit sarcastic, and maybe I wasn't...
Hope to haunt these halls a bit more in the future.
*grins* Y'all have no idea how often I get asked that. Friend? Sister? Cute like-minded neighbors!?
Unfortunately, my female friends mostly think I'm nuts, and the ones that don't either don't pack or are married, the sister turns 16 in two months so she's off-limits for at least a couple years (though she probably WILL carry when she can...) and neighbors - nope. I'll keep an eye out for you guys, though.
laurel - This will probably come across differently than I intend it, but after reading several of your posts, I feel I must say what is on my mind. I truly hope your boyfriend understands just how very lucky he is. It is obvious that you are strong, intelligent, very knowledgable about guns, you OC, with a .40, and speak very well as to why you have chosen something other than the run-of-the-mill 9mm's. I mean no offense towards anyone, male or female, who carries a 9mm or smaller caliber - I respect anyone who refuses to be a victim, even if their choice is a Raven 25. I am simply trying to make the point that you, laurel, are a very special person, and I am jealous of your boyfriend. I am happily married, but my wife has no interest in my hobby (OK, obsession), although she does appreciate the lengths to which I go to ensure her safety.
Laurel, thanks for the post on the Arbiter's site about the guy who open carried. He's my bro!
Jim, thank you times a million for your comment. I really appreciate your... appreciation! I didn't take it as anything other than flattering, so no worries. I am also a lucky girl to have a boyfriend who has no qualms about sharing this whole adventure with me. He never acts like he'd prefer I didn't go out to the range with the "boys" or like I'm stepping on his man-toes when I OC too. That's good, because I'd have to beat him up if he did... Just kidding!
Idaho, thanks again for pointing me to the Arbiter article. I'm still waiting on a response from the A.G. I figure I'll give it the rest of this week and then try via phone or snail mail next week. I don't know if you caught my second comment to the Arbiter article, in response to "OldAlumnus" - it looks like the article is off the page now so I'm not sure if it's gone for good or what. He really ticked me off by suggesting that he's a gun-friendly person but that campus is not the time or place for "that sort of thing." Uggggh. I may have come down a little heavy on the rape/attack thing but I'm sorry, that's a pet peeve, ESPECIALLY as a woman. Idaho isn't New York, but it is also NOT crime-free, and campuses are ripe for attacks against women. It absolutely galls me to think some of these people would really have me risk becoming a victim rather than protect myself, all so they don't have to think about guns or see my gun because it might make them uncomfortable. Well, I couldn't care less what they think is or is not proper. As I pointed out to "OldAlumnus," RAPE is not proper. Protecting myself against such is not only my right, it is the RIGHT thing to do. !!!
I'll post again when I hear anything back from A.G. Wasden. Thanks for your support, fellas.
Laurel, I read your post. I could tell you're riled up but not too much so. I think I let loose with both barrels in the next post. The guy's an irrational bafoon. Thanks again, and hope Wasden replys soon.
laurel wrote:I've seen quite a few LE that were 5'4", 120 lbs. And a couple were even female!:PIndeed. It kind of made me laugh, too, because I REALLY don't think I look like the LEO type. I'm about 5'4", 120 lbs, and not very imposing.
Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"
Gun bans on college campuses are something that really get me going too. Our A.G. here in Virginia even said that colleges and universities thatreceive state funding could not impose legal bans on gunsthat could get you arrested. However, the A.G. said that colleges could still impose bans in their rules of student conduct that can have you expelled if you even have a gun locked in your car.
You may have heard about the murderer that was on the loose last week at Virginia Tech. My brother and several friendsare studentsthere, and they were all forced to shut themselves in their dorms because they have been disarmed.
Wow, stupid me! I was under the impression that government employees, you know, work for ME, the taxpayer. Wrong!
In the USPS mail today:
August 29, 2006
Dear Miss Zimmer:
Thank you for your recent letter to the Attorney General requesting an opinion regarding your legal right to open carry a handgun on a university campus, specifically the University of Idaho Campus.
The Attorney General by law is required to give legal opinions in writing to the Legislature, the Governor, Secretary of State, Treasurer, State Controller, and the trustees or commissioners of state institutions, when required, upon any question of law relating to their respective offices.
The Attorney General by law cannot provide the research and legal opinion you have requested. You may wish to consult your own private attorney to advise you of your legal rights.
KRISS BIVENS CLOYD
Constituent Information Specialist
Wow, now THAT was helpful. My project for this Labor Day weekend will now to be to draft letters to my legislators, demanding that THEY seek this information from the A.G. on my behalf. If that doesn't work, I'll write the Governor next. A friend's dad is also a lawyer, I may hit him up to see if he can help me out.
Now, I'm going to go do this: in the name of bureaucracy. Everyone have a good weekend!
Laurel, I have some 'connections' down here in Boise... politically related ones, and I'll see what I can do. I make no promises about the timelyness of the info, but I promise I'll do what I can to get something in writing.
Oh, crud. I forgot. Am I correct in saying that you want your CWP? But have to open carry in the mean time? If so, please go to the State of Maine's website and request an application for their non-resident permit... it can be done all via the mail system and required no fingerprints, though it does do a FBI background check. Idaho respects ALL states permits. Idaho does issue to 18-21 year olds on a case by case basis, and there is no statute in Idaho law saying that Idaho only respects other state's permits as long as they are 21 or over (some states do spell it out). My bro... the same one open carrying on BSU, has used his Maine non-resident permit several times and while LE gives you flak over it, they know they can't do anything about it. It only takes about a month or less to get approved and permit sent back to you. You MUST keep it ON YOUR PERSON while carrying concealed if it's an out of state permit. It's proven and it works and it's legal! Enjoy!
Hope this is helpful and not overly confusing.
BTW, VERY ARTICULATE and well written piece in the arbiter's online forum. thanks again!
Sounds good. I have been involved with the GOP locally for a few years now and plan to start with pestering the legislators who (should) know me by name... Hopefully between the two of us we can get some information.
I am unsure whether or not I'll be getting my CCW or not. Two of the states I'm concerned about being able to carry in, California and Washington, recognize neither Idaho nor Maine CCW. Kind of makes it pointless, since I OC here in Idaho anyway... The only real benefit I see at this point is not having to do a background check every time I purchase a firearm. That would be nice, but other than that... :?
So no, I would not say that I'm aiming for a CCW at this point. It was my original intent, before embarking on my OC adventures, as it just seemed like the "thing to do." Now that I comfortably OC, I'm not really concerned with CCW.
Anyway, Idaho, I'm going to PM you with my email address in case you'd like to get ahold of me off-board. I try to keep my dealings with public officials as open as possible, hence why I posted my letter from the A.G., but I also try to moderate my blabbermouthing when I haven't even yet contacted the big-wigs. If you'd like to discuss who is being written to/called and such, email may be the way to do it.
As always, I'll post any big updates here as soon as I get them.
laurel wrote:But getting a Washington Non-Res CHL is so easy. Fill out the form, and go to any police station in WA for your fingerprinting. Then pay your money and wait about 45 days. That's it.I am unsure whether or not I'll be getting my CCW or not. Two of the states I'm concerned about being able to carry in, California and Washington, recognize neither Idaho nor Maine CCW. Kind of makes it pointless, since I OC here in Idaho anyway... The only real benefit I see at this point is not having to do a background check every time I purchase a firearm. That would be nice, but other than that... :?
Thanks for the info on WA - unfortunately, it puts me back at square one for at least the four months, since WA doesn't wish to recognize me as a citizen with rights until I turn 21.
It is definitely something I will check out at that point, though, as I live about three miles from the WA border and sure would like to be able to carry over there, too.