OC to Dicks

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I decided to see what reaction I would get from OC in dicks sporting goods since it is by the main mall in my area. I went in for a couple things. so I knew it wouldn't take long if there was a problem. I was looked at my a couple employees a little weird at first and no one seemed to say anything. I got my items and headed towards the register. the man in front of me (with two daughters estimated 6,9 ) paid for his things and hurried his kids out after noticing my sidearm. now my turn to check out .. I handed the 19 yr old male my things. he scanned them and as I was paying he leaned to get a better look and said "gun?". to which I calmly said yep and left.

but I felt awkward the whole time at the register.

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Bolt06, keep on OC'ing!!







Jersey Ron

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I open carry pretty regularly here around the Pittsburgh area, but not in the city itself until their illegal city ordinance prohibiting open carry is erased from the books.

I've carried into Dicks, the mall (including right past a mall security guard to no effect), Borders, Chick-Fil-A and various other fast food places, and openly carried down sidewalks and outside of strip malls. Nobody has ever mentionned my gun (a Walther P99) but I have noticed the occasional nervous glance from aging-hippy types.

All in all it seems to be pretty much a non-issue.

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I've open carried at Dick's multiple times in Virginia without incident (the one at Short Pump Town Center in Henrico County), but then again, we are talking about Virginia. No problems...

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I will continue to OC and to spread the word about the right to do so. I just sometimes think that I am the only one in my area that is OC'ing.. I am attempting to get my friends to do so also ..

I want to get a back up gun in the next couple weeks.. there is a gun show in Valley Forge PA and I am going ..

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"I open carry pretty regularly here around the Pittsburgh area, but not in the city itself until their illegal city ordinance prohibiting open carry is erased from the books."

Pittsburgh still has such an ordinance?

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Yeah - does not sound right to me - please cite code section.

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Hmmm, wellll the code I'm thinking that I'm being told about is:

§ 607.06 CARRYING OF OPERABLE FIREARMS PROHIBITED. No person shall carry in any vehicle or concealed or unconcealed on or about his person except when on his or her land or in his or her own abode or fixed place of business any firearm; provided that this section shall not apply to: (a)Those persons specifically exempted under 18 P.S. Sec. 6106(b)(1-10); or (b)Any person issued a valid license to the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act when carrying the type of weapon for which such license was issued.




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I've been told in no uncertain terms by PGH Police that if they see any open carrying in PGH they'll arrest the person and revoke any carry license they possess.
I've gone over the PA UFA and discussed the state preemption section, but the PGH police seem to assert that the state preemption section only has to do with the transfer and registration of firearms, not carry. (I did mention that the phrase "when carried" is in that section but the officer I spoke to cut the conversation short and told me that I would be taken to court and I would lose).

I know that PGH doesn't have the right to regulate carry, but really don't want to push it at this time.

I *did* get in touch with the NRA-ILA: they didn't even know PA was an OC state until I wrote a long letter outlining the UFA. I got the following letter from the NRA-ILA:

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Peter: Sorry for the delay. Several of us here have taken the time to review your message.
We have come to the conclusion that you are right in your interpretation of the law regarding open carry in Pennsylvania. But first we must clarify that carrying a firearm openly while in a motor vehicle requires a license, as does concealed carry. We also agree that if carrying a gun openly is outside cultural norms in Pittsburgh, just about anyone will get hassled. As to the woman at the sheriff's department who says preemption only relates to registration, she is just dead wrong. Under the preemption statute, Pittsburgh cannot decide which parts of State law it wants to honor. But that is more of a political issue.
Another important question to consider is how the courts define, "concealed", "brandishing", "incitement", and a host of other terms. We here have seen definitions that would class a holstered gun as concealed to the extent it was in the holster (no joke). The fact is that open carry violates cultural norms in many areas of PA, and is a losing proposition, just as it is here in Northern Virginia.
We suggest that you abide with all laws carefully, as well as cultural norms for the sake on not being hassled by law enforcement. While it may be a perfectly legal and considered an acceptable practice to carry a pistol openly in a holster in rural areas, it will definitely not be an acceptable cultural practice in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh.
Please be aware that if you are ever arrested for open carry for whatever reason, it is imperative that you contact and pay for an attorney of your choice. The NRA's Office of General Counsel maintains an Attorney Referral List consisting of attorneys who have agreed to have members referred to them regarding such matters. Additionally, the NRA typically will only support those few cases that could result in a widespread and favorable impact at the national or state levels.
We do thank you for bringing this issue to our attention and we will try to make sure that everyone here will be better informed as to the current status of law in Pennsylvania.


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Of course, they may as well have titled that email reply "Be Careful Where You Obey The Law"

Peter

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"I've been told in no uncertain terms by PGH Police that if they see any open carrying in PGH they'll arrest the person and revoke any carry license they possess."

A most interesting interpretation of state law by Pittsburgh police. According to 18 Pa.C.S.§ 6109(i), only the issuing authority can revoke the license, and then for only those reasons stated in § 6105 or § 6109(e)(1). Open carry is not one of those reasons.

Obviously those to whom you spoke were unaware of 18 Pa.C.S. § 5301, Official Oppression, to wit:[font=TimesNewRoman,Bold]

[align=left]§ 5301. Official oppression.[/align][/font]
[align=left]A person acting or purporting to act in an official capacity or taking advantage of such actual or purported capacity commits a misdemeanor of the second degree if, knowing that his conduct is illegal, he:[/align]
[align=left]1. subjects another to arrest, detention, search, seizure, mistreatment, dispossession, assessment, lien or other infringement of personal or property rights; or[/align]
[align=left]2. denies or impedes another in the exercise or enjoyment of any right, privilege, power or immunity.[/align]
[align=left]Also to be considered are the following two cases:[/align]
[align=left]Commonwealth v. Hawkins, 692 A.2d 1068, n.4 - “In all parts of Pennsylvania, persons who are licensed may carry concealed firearms. 18 Pa.C.S. § 6108. Except in Philadelphia, firearms may be carried openly without a license. See Ortiz v. Commonwealth, 545 Pa. 279, 283, 681 A.2d 152, 155 (1996) (only in Philadelphia must a person obtain a license for carrying a firearm whether it is unconcealed or concealed; in other parts of the Commonwealth, unconcealed firearms do not require a license)”.[/align]
Ortiz v. Commonwealth, 545 Pa. 279; 681 A.2d 152 (1996) - "...in Philadelphia County, the legislature requires that a person must be licensed to carry weapons openly and not concealed from sight, whereas in all other counties of Pennsylvania, weapons may be carried openly without a license."

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critter wrote:

The fact is that open carry violates cultural norms in many areas of PA, and is a losing proposition, just as it is here in Northern Virginia.

Click to expand...

Huh? When did the NRA write this? Losing proposition in Northern VA?

Look folks, Pittsburgh is preempted, just like the Alleghenny ordiance that bans all carry at the Pittsburgh airport is preempted - Pittsbrugh and Philledelphia lost in the PA SC on this issue of preemption.

I would not worry about Pittsburgh.

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Rules of Dealing with Cops:

1) Do not address this with officers on the street or officers on the office counter. Take it up the higher part of the chain of command.

2) Do not argue with cops.

It's that simple.

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Lonnie Wilson wrote:

Rules of Dealing with Cops:

1) Do not address this with officers on the street or officers on the office counter. Take it up the higher part of the chain of command.

2) Do not argue with cops.

It's that simple.

Click to expand...

I have no respect for law enforcement officers sworn to uphold the constitution, and protect the citizens of a nation, who want to tell me I cannot be armed with ______

I have argued with policemen before and won on several occasionssimply because I wasnot in thewrong and I was (in my eyes) obviously of superior wit.

I dont care if you think it impractical to argue with them. Freedom is not about practicality. It is unamiously about the principles of life liberty and property. And ANY person who tresspasses upon those tenants of my existance will be shown no mercy nor respect from me.

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That's just great.

Not an acceptable cultural practice...?



When did this become ameaningful thing to law enforcement!??!?!
:cuss:

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Hey Mike:

I got that letter from a rep at NRA-ILA on Aug 23 of this year

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Who are to be the arbiters in this matter of"acceptable cultural practices?"

Surely not the police?

It is no part of police business,as I see it, to have any kind of opinion about the practice of a lawful activity. They are not paid to opine on such issues.

Or am I missing something here?

If open carry is so culturally unacceptable, then let the State Legislature ban the practice !This is well-nigh impossible, IMHO, in states where the practice is constitutionally protected, and there are cases upholding its legality.We need merely conduct ourselves properly when OCing, and remain polite but steadfast if questioned.

TrueBrit.

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Well I'd agree with that. The problem is even the AG of PA has told me that police may arrest (falsely of course) a person for OC'ing and it becomes the problem of the person carrying, as they will no doubt be dragged through the court system in order to be vindicated.

Now that the NRA-ILA has made it clear that they don't want to straighten out the PGH council, nor do they want to help members that get into "trouble" with the law; I'm not going to be renewing my NRA membership.

I mean, it's kind of useless sending these guys money from PA when all they want to do is spend that money on high profile cases like the San Francisco gun ban or the New Orleans gun confiscation cases. I've had quite enough redistribution of my wealth from the Feds to be sending the NRA even more money.

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Our new comrade, the Critter, has explained exactly why I am no great fan of the NRA either!They are good for nationwide issues, but I prefer the GOA myself. More gung-ho at local level ,I believe.BTW,welcome to OCDO, Sir!

TrueBrit.

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critter wrote:

Hey Mike:

I got that letter from a rep at NRA-ILA on Aug 23 of this year

Click to expand...

Send me the complete email with the email adddess and names of those who sent it (Mike@OpenCarry.org).

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It sounds to me like your having a similar problem that I did. the only reason that I am not awaiting a court date is that I had done my research (THANKS TO OPENCARRY.ORG) I was able to politely correct them on every issue they brought to me about how I wasn't allowed to OC.. and I think the reason they let me go was because I knew someone that worked in there department and they were wrong. (I also had a friend from another department hear the call on the radio with my name and came to the scene. (whole story in thread "Pennsylvania/ bad run in ")
as long as no voices are raised and you keep your level head about you, discussion not arguement i think is ok. (just watch the tone.)