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Thread: Open Carry Police encounter in Philly!

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Just because police have powers doesn't mean they should exercise them.

    See Criminal Conspiracy http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA905.htmland Official Oppression http://members.aol.com/DKM1/18.Cp.53.html. Now, I showed mine but I'll bet the police cannot show me where open carry is a violation of the Uniform Firearms Act.


    Law-abiding citizens are not a threat to anyone except criminals (like the cops in this story).

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    One problem I see with this guy is that he gave the LEOs grief when they asked to see his license - a LTCF IS required to carry handguns openly in Philedelphia.

    [p]

    He should have said, "Of course I have a LTCF officer, would you like to see it?"

    [p]

    Asking for business cards of the LEOs would have been top on my list that day had it been me - asking for a business card is a little smoother than asking for badge numbers.


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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Yeah because Philly is a special case he did step into trouble with that. Still it's interesting that as bad an anti-OC rep as Philly has he was able to walk away with his gun and permit after being handcuffed and detained.

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    The thing that makes this case really bad in my mind is the fact that llthe LEOs continues to claim that he was braking the law, but they gave him back his gun and let him go. Of course he should have been let go and given his gun back, but if he, or anyone else,really was braking the law I would want then to be charged and arrested. Thatjust proves that all the cops were totally wrong andwere lying through their teeth about his right to OC.

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    One thing is clear - open carry in Philly with a LTCF is NOT a violation of the PA Uniform Firearms Act.

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    Hey guys I'm the OP from GlockTalk. I made an account to post this story after some users reccomended I do so in the GT forum.

    Yes I was mistaken to tell the officer that he didn't need my permit. I was flustered. I later did tell the officer that in the court case which I'm referring to, it was stated that a LTCF is required in order to openly carry in Philadelphia.

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    Two Useful Rules

    1. Never say more than you are required to say. Asking for a supervisor who might know the law (no guarantee) is fine. Attempting to educate LEO's even if you are 100% correct is not your job.

    2. A LEO is never your friend. Much was made of the "nice" young cop. Maybe he was just a friendly type maybe not.

    I am not in the OP's situation, however I feel it is important to "push back" whenever events like this happen. Otherwise LEO's feel emboldened and even more infallible. Another good reason to not overplay your hand (run off at the mouth). All the benefit of doubt will be with law enforcement. Try to have some sort of recording device or at least a friend. It's tough to remember everything you ought to do when you are (literally) under the gun. And by "push back," I don't mean physical confrontation but rather execising any administrative/legal options you have. At a minimum, filing a complaint, sending letters, etc. are important to establish a paper trail of the behavior.

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    I should also add that due to Philadelphia's unique status (LTCF required for OC), a LEO might have a colorable claim of reasonable suspicion justifying a investigatory stop - depending on other factors. This would not be true elsewhere in Pennsylvania (a criminal doesn't typically carry a handgun in a holster) and I would respond even more vigorously in such a case. Do you have a state association that would be willing to monitor such incidents? Documentation is everything. You should be able to get the names of the officers and any other records via your state's information access law (I assume PA has one). A pain the backside to be sure but if we don't hang together.....

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    I'm a New Jerseyian with a Florida CCW. Does one need to have a PA CCW for Open Carry or does that include my Floridian license as well? I've asked this before but I don't recall getting a clear, solid answer.









    Thanks,



    Jersey Ron

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    As Pa has reciprocity with Fla., you are good to go OC or CCW in PA. However with the exception of the inside a vehicle or in Philly you do not need any permit to open carry. For situation like this one I wouldn't mind having a Pa. non resident permit when dealing the police. If they didn't recognize OC as legal they might not recognize that a Florida permit is too.

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    Thanks Longwatch! Sounds like sound advice to me!





    Jersey

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    No problem, not to mention that a PA non resident permit is about one the easiest and quickest to get and costs only $20. Also, having a in state permit immunizes you from the Gun Free School Zone Act, just in case they powers that be are desperate to charge you with something.

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    Where do I goto apply?

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    I got mine from Centre County, Pa. http://www.co.centre.pa.us/sheriff/l...pplication.asp . Since you are from New Jersey you might want to call them and ask what you need to do since you don't have a home state permit. If they can't or won't issue you one, well you still have your Florida permit, you just won't have that little extra (probably unneccessary) bit of legal insurance.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Just went looking on PDO and they requirement of a home state permit seems pretty strict, even if your state is may issue like NJ. Looks like you might just have to rely on you Florida permit.

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    Hey, thanks again! You are MOST appreciated!







    Jersey Ron



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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    Update: PA permit is now $26. Still a bargain, though.

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    longwatch wrote:
    No problem, not to mention that a PA non resident permit is about one the easiest and quickest to get and costs only $20. Also, having a in state permit immunizes you from the Gun Free School Zone Act, just in case they powers that be are desperate to charge you with something.
    I think it only immunizes residents who have a permit from that sate. I think non-residents and out of state permits don't qualify. I might be wrong on this though.

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    ilbob wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    No problem, not to mention that a PA non resident permit is about one the easiest and quickest to get and costs only $20. Also, having a in state permit immunizes you from the Gun Free School Zone Act, just in case they powers that be are desperate to charge you with something.
    I think it only immunizes residents who have a permit from that sate. I think non-residents and out of state permits don't qualify. I might be wrong on this though.
    The text of the permit holder exemption to federal Gun Free School Zone Act does not discriminate against persons based upon their "residency," if any, in any state.

    18USC922(q)(2) provides that "(A)It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or
    foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable
    cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm--
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political
    subdivision of the State
    , and the law of the State or political
    subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a
    license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political
    subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to
    receive the license; . . ."

    I have heard that the BATFE takes the position that the license must be from the state in which the school sits. But it sure seems that reasonable statutory construction would allow the inclusion of other states permits if the state in which the school sits considerd that license to be be valid in that state - essentially, by operation of state law, the other state's permit holder is licensed by that state.

    Now the federal GFSZ Act was struck down in Lopez as exceeding the Congress' commerce power - the new version added some findings and recittals - as far as I know, GFSZ Act has not been litigated again, perhaps b/c the BATFE does nto rely on it except in plea bargains?

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    The question is what is a "license." If it is official permission granted by some authority then any recognized or reciprocity permit should be ok. If it is the tangible object (which is really just documentation of the actual license) then perhaps not. Driving without a license means (usually) that you were never given permission to drive not that you don't have the little laminated card on your person (which might be a separate offense or at least cause inconvenience). In some cases (e.g. certain farm implements) may be driven on a public road without a state issued card because the legislature (via general law) has given permission (or a "license") to do so under the stated conditions.







    Mike wrote:
    ilbob wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    No problem, not to mention that a PA non resident permit is about one the easiest and quickest to get and costs only $20. Also, having a in state permit immunizes you from the Gun Free School Zone Act, just in case they powers that be are desperate to charge you with something.
    I think it only immunizes residents who have a permit from that sate. I think non-residents and out of state permits don't qualify. I might be wrong on this though.
    The text of the permit holder exemption to federal Gun Free School Zone Act does not discriminate against persons based upon their "residency," if any, in any state.

    18USC922(q)(2) provides that "(A)It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or
    foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable
    cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm--
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political
    subdivision of the State
    , and the law of the State or political
    subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a
    license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political
    subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to
    receive the license; . . ."

    I have heard that the BATFE takes the position that the license must be from the state in which the school sits. But it sure seems that reasonable statutory construction would allow the inclusion of other states permits if the state in which the school sits considerd that license to be be valid in that state - essentially, by operation of state law, the other state's permit holder is licensed by that state.

    Now the federal GFSZ Act was struck down in Lopez as exceeding the Congress' commerce power - the new version added some findings and recittals - as far as I know, GFSZ Act has not been litigated again, perhaps b/c the BATFE does nto rely on it except in plea bargains?

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    Str8_Shooter_85:

    In your thread on the other forum, you make reference to the case law that makes Open Carry legal in PA. Perhaps it was because I do not have an account on that forum, but I never saw the attachment to that effect that you said would be available there.

    Would you be so kind as to supply a link to the relevant case law? I think that should probably be added to the information on the PA section of this site, for future reference.

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    Delphius wrote:
    Str8_Shooter_85:

    In your thread on the other forum, you make reference to the case law that makes Open Carry legal in PA. Perhaps it was because I do not have an account on that forum, but I never saw the attachment to that effect that you said would be available there.

    Would you be so kind as to supply a link to the relevant case law? I think that should probably be added to the information on the PA section of this site, for future reference.
    Sure thing. Here you go.

    http://www.courts.state.pa.us/oppost...f/k00jiz95.pdf

    You want to be looking at footnote 4 on page 4.

    I strongly reccomend to anyone open carrying in Philly, that you carry a copy of this court case with you. It probably won't do much to sway the opinion of the LEOs, but it might just provide them with the information they need to radio back and get a positive answer on the legality of open carry.

    Be safe.

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    The reality is that this court decision (at footenote 4) is simply reminding everyone of the plain meaning of the Uniform Firearms Act with regard to LTCFs. Under the UFA, LTCFS are only needed to:

    1. Carry handguns concealed.

    2. Carry handguns in vehicles (though apparently one criminal case says intra-state transport in trucnk requires a LTCF unless an exception applies).

    3. Carry openly in Philedephia.

    4. Carry any gun during "emergencies."

    And possibly, though not yet litigated - 5. Carry handguns on school grounds.

    FN 4 of Hawkins: "In all parts of Pennsylvania, persons who are licensed may carry concealed firearms. 18 Pa.C.S.ยง 6108. Except in Philadelphia, firearms may be carried openly without a license. See Ortiz v. Commonwealth, ___ Pa. ___, ___, 681 A.2d 152, 155 (1996) (only in Philadelphia must a person obtain a license for carrying a firearm whether it is unconcealed or concealed; in other parts of the Commonwealth, unconcealed firearms do not require a license)."

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    Another court case that I like should change the Pa. UFA for the better:

    US Supreme Court. 319 US 105 (1943). MURDOCK v. COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA

    http://www.constitution.org/ussc/319-105a.htm

    "A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the federal constitution."

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