Open Carry Police encounter in Philly!

apjonas · Sep 13, 2006

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The question is what is a "license." If it is official permission granted by some authority then any recognized or reciprocity permit should be ok. If it is the tangible object (which is really just documentation of the actual license) then perhaps not. Driving without a license means (usually) that you were never given permission to drive not that you don't have the little laminated card on your person (which might be a separate offense or at least cause inconvenience). In some cases (e.g. certain farm implements) may be driven on a public road without a state issued card because the legislature (via general law) has given permission (or a "license") to do so under the stated conditions.

Mike wrote:

ilbob wrote:

longwatch wrote:

No problem, not to mention that a PA non resident permit is about one the easiest and quickest to get and costs only $20. Also, having a in state permit immunizes you from the Gun Free School Zone Act, just in case they powers that be are desperate to charge you with something.

Click to expand...

I think it only immunizes residents who have a permit from that sate. I think non-residents and out of state permits don't qualify. I might be wrong on this though.

Click to expand...

The text of the permit holder exemption to federal Gun Free School Zone Act does not discriminate against persons based upon their "residency," if any, in any state.

18USC922(q)(2) provides that "(A)It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or
foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable
cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm--
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political
subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political
subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a
license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political
subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to
receive the license; . . ."

I have heard that the BATFE takes the position that the license must be from the state in which the school sits. But it sure seems that reasonable statutory construction would allow the inclusion of other states permits if the state in which the school sits considerd that license to be be valid in that state - essentially, by operation of state law, the other state's permit holder is licensed by that state.

Now the federal GFSZ Act was struck down in Lopez as exceeding the Congress' commerce power - the new version added some findings and recittals - as far as I know, GFSZ Act has not been litigated again, perhaps b/c the BATFE does nto rely on it except in plea bargains?

Delphius · Sep 14, 2006

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Str8_Shooter_85:

In your thread on the other forum, you make reference to the case law that makes Open Carry legal in PA. Perhaps it was because I do not have an account on that forum, but I never saw the attachment to that effect that you said would be available there.

Would you be so kind as to supply a link to the relevant case law? I think that should probably be added to the information on the PA section of this site, for future reference.

Str8_Shooter_85 · Sep 15, 2006

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Delphius wrote:

Str8_Shooter_85:

In your thread on the other forum, you make reference to the case law that makes Open Carry legal in PA. Perhaps it was because I do not have an account on that forum, but I never saw the attachment to that effect that you said would be available there.

Would you be so kind as to supply a link to the relevant case law? I think that should probably be added to the information on the PA section of this site, for future reference.

Sure thing. Here you go.

http://www.courts.state.pa.us/opposting/supreme/opinions/0497pdf/k00jiz95.pdf

You want to be looking at footnote 4 on page 4.

I strongly reccomend to anyone open carrying in Philly, that you carry a copy of this court case with you. It probably won't do much to sway the opinion of the LEOs, but it might just provide them with the information they need to radio back and get a positive answer on the legality of open carry.

Be safe.

Mike · Sep 15, 2006

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The reality is that this court decision (at footenote 4) is simply reminding everyone of the plain meaning of the Uniform Firearms Act with regard to LTCFs. Under the UFA, LTCFS are only needed to:

1. Carry handguns concealed.

2. Carry handguns in vehicles (though apparently one criminal case says intra-state transport in trucnk requires a LTCF unless an exception applies).

3. Carry openly in Philedephia.

4. Carry any gun during "emergencies."

And possibly, though not yet litigated - 5. Carry handguns on school grounds.

FN 4 of Hawkins: "In all parts of Pennsylvania, persons who are licensed may carry concealed firearms. 18 Pa.C.S.§ 6108. Except in Philadelphia, firearms may be carried openly without a license. See Ortiz v. Commonwealth, ___ Pa. ___, ___, 681 A.2d 152, 155 (1996) (only in Philadelphia must a person obtain a license for carrying a firearm whether it is unconcealed or concealed; in other parts of the Commonwealth, unconcealed firearms do not require a license)."

ne1 · Sep 15, 2006

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Another court case that I like should change the Pa. UFA for the better:

US Supreme Court. 319 US 105 (1943). MURDOCK v. COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA

http://www.constitution.org/ussc/319-105a.htm

"A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the federal constitution."

DKSuddeth · Sep 15, 2006

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ne1 wrote:

Another court case that I like should change the Pa. UFA for the better:

US Supreme Court. 319 US 105 (1943). MURDOCK v. COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA

http://www.constitution.org/ussc/319-105a.htm

"A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the federal constitution."

I was looking at this case last week wondering how I could use it for texas.

ne1 · Sep 15, 2006

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The right to keep and bear arms exists under both state and federal constitutions. Even if we accept that legislation has made concealed carry a licensed privilege, I do not see how Philadelphia can constitutionally require purchasing a licenseto exercise the right to openly bear arms, or to limit purchases to one per month, etc.

Gray Peterson · Sep 18, 2006

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New thread on Philadelphia Open Carry

We need to encourage him to go forward, he's thinking of giving up because he doesn't want to get harmed again.

I wish I was in PHL right now. I'd have my PA LTCF, and if they revoked that, my FL CWFL and NH LTCF would still cover me even if I were a PA resident (per the PA AG's office).

He needs to fight.

Gray Peterson · Sep 18, 2006

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Ok, is anyone here from the SE PA area? We need more people on the Phily PD's on their illegal harassment of open carriers.

Gray Peterson · Sep 18, 2006

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Just an FYI for everyone:

Philadelphia PD Misconduct Reports

Read the next page too. Lots of good information. I'm half tempted to file a misconduct complaint myself, due to the huge amount of information. Does PA have an FOIA law? Start asking for copies of their protocols, procedures, and memorandums on open carry of a pistol.

Mike · Sep 19, 2006

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I don't think that he or anyone else needs to hire a lawyer or file a lawsuit to get progress in educating LEOs in Philedelphia. Jawboning can work, as it has worked all over most of the US.

Besides, I think many or most LEOs in Philedelphia know that open carry is legal in the city with a LTCF, or, would quickly make a clall to verify if a gun owner made a good faith effort to show his LTCF and calmly and confidently, and dispationately explain that the license priliges him to oppen carry in the city.

ne1 · Sep 19, 2006

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"We need to encourage him to go forward, he's thinking of giving up because he doesn't want to get harmed again."

I agree but he is going to need more support than an individual such as myself can provide. This is where our national organizations (NRA, SAF, etc.) should get involved-shame on anybody here who isn't a member of at least one.

JacquisPoni · Dec 12, 2006

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Hi

I will be in Philadelphia this weekend visiting relatives. I have non-resident permit LTCF (I am a Virginia resident now with a CC permit here)and was wondering what people thoughts were in OC'ing inside the city. I have read some of the threads and I am wondering if I should even attempt to OC as I am much more comfortable OC'ing than concealed, it's easier me being female to OC than CC.

I welcome any advice in regards to OC'ing as to where to avoid, where is ok based on the experiences of others inside the city and even outside the city as well.

Thanks

Str8_Shooter_85 · Dec 12, 2006

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JacquisPoni wrote:

Hi

I will be in Philadelphia this weekend visiting relatives. I have non-resident permit LTCF (I am a Virginia resident now with a CC permit here)and was wondering what people thoughts were in OC'ing inside the city. I have read some of the threads and I am wondering if I should even attempt to OC as I am much more comfortable OC'ing than concealed, it's easier me being female to OC than CC.

I welcome any advice in regards to OC'ing as to where to avoid, where is ok based on the experiences of others inside the city and even outside the city as well.

Thanks

I say absolutely 100% do not open carry in Philadelphia. I would say it's okay outside of the city limits. But the Philly PD are NOT aware that open carry is legal. I'm in the middle of sueing them over the issue this thread is originally about. I've encountered more uninformed Philly LEO than I could have ever imagined. If police see you carrying openly, you WILL get stopped. You can expect the same type of harassment I recieved.

Moreover, ALOT of Philly PD are under the impression that only permits issued by Philly are valid for carrying inside of the city. EVEN THE PHILLY OFFICE THAT ISSUES PERMITS IS UNDER THIS IMPRESSION! I was told my permit issued by Montgomery County (15 miles from center city) is no good in Philly. That is WRONG. Being as you don't even have a state permit, although legally speaking it's good for this state, I just would not OC in Philly.

Conceal conceal conceal. I can't urge you enough. I never realized how uninformed these "public protectors" are regarding firearms until my incident.

Mike · Dec 12, 2006

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Sorry, I disagree. First of all, you were released once your LTCF was verified, yes? Seond, if nobody OCs in Philadelphia, nothing will get fixed in terms of harassment. Third,what ongoing harassment? I don't believe that the Philadelphia police are that dumb to not know the UFA, or quickly verify the UFA once they see your LTCF.

So you filed a lawsuit? Please email me the complaint.

JacquisPoni · Dec 12, 2006

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I am sorry...I do have a non resident PA LTCF.

I wiltake your advice into consideration, though as I don't want any issues with Philly PD as my experiences with them in the past (distant past) was never very pleasant, I may end up carrying concealed as so not to ruffle the feathers of my family members who don't agree with me carrying at all. Keep the peace in the family will probably be the ultimate decision.
Thank you

Mike · Dec 12, 2006

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JacquisPoni wrote:

I do have a non resident PA LTCF.

If you have an officially accepted pemrit allowing you to conceal in PA generally, that same permit enables you to open carry in Philadelphia.

JacquisPoni · Dec 12, 2006

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I think I will venture out of my box and OC in Philly, one because I can and two to test the waters. I will be downtown Saturday morn expect to be stopped there but not so much while in Mother's neighborhood.

Pwning the Papacy · Dec 12, 2006

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Try to have some sort of recording device or at least a friend.

Communications interception illegal without consent:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC2511

Mike · Dec 12, 2006

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Pwning the Papacy wrote:

Try to have some sort of recording device or at least a friend.

Click to expand...

Communications interception illegal without consent:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC2511

What on earth is this post about?

The comment to which you post is directed makes no sense at all. 1. The federal statute you cite is inapplicable to recording an LEO interaction face to face because the statute refers to recording over wire communication systems or within the ambit of the Commerce clause somehow. 2. The statute has a one party consent rule - if you are in the conversation, and you consent, no crime.

"(d) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter for a person not
acting under color of law to intercept a wire, oral, or electronic
communication where such person is a party to the communication or where
one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such
interception unless such communication is intercepted for the purpose of
committing any criminal or tortious act in violation of the Constitution
or laws of the United States or of any State."

Open Carry Police encounter in Philly!

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