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Open Carry Police encounter in Philly!

ne1

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Just because police have powers doesn't mean they should exercise them.

See Criminal Conspiracy http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA905.htmland Official Oppression http://members.aol.com/DKM1/18.Cp.53.html. Now, I showed mine but I'll bet the police cannot show me where open carry is a violation of the Uniform Firearms Act.


Law-abiding citizens are not a threat to anyone except criminals (like the cops in this story).
 

Mike

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One problem I see with this guy is that he gave the LEOs grief when they asked to see his license - a LTCF IS required to carry handguns openly in Philedelphia.

[p]

He should have said, "Of course I have a LTCF officer, would you like to see it?"

[p]

Asking for business cards of the LEOs would have been top on my list that day had it been me - asking for a business card is a little smoother than asking for badge numbers.
 

longwatch

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Yeah because Philly is a special case he did step into trouble with that. Still it's interesting that as bad an anti-OC rep as Philly has he was able to walk away with his gun and permit after being handcuffed and detained.
 

VApatriot

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The thing that makes this case really bad in my mind is the fact that llthe LEOs continues to claim that he was braking the law, but they gave him back his gun and let him go. Of course he should have been let go and given his gun back, but if he, or anyone else,really was braking the law I would want then to be charged and arrested. Thatjust proves that all the cops were totally wrong andwere lying through their teeth about his right to OC.
 

Str8_Shooter_85

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Hey guys I'm the OP from GlockTalk. I made an account to post this story after some users reccomended I do so in the GT forum.

Yes I was mistaken to tell the officer that he didn't need my permit. I was flustered. I later did tell the officer that in the court case which I'm referring to, it was stated that a LTCF is required in order to openly carry in Philadelphia.
 

apjonas

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Two Useful Rules

1. Never say more than you are required to say. Asking for a supervisor who might know the law (no guarantee) is fine. Attempting to educate LEO's even if you are 100% correct is not your job.

2. A LEO is never your friend. Much was made of the "nice" young cop. Maybe he was just a friendly type maybe not.

I am not in the OP's situation, however I feel it is important to "push back" whenever events like this happen. Otherwise LEO's feel emboldened and even more infallible. Another good reason to not overplay your hand (run off at the mouth). All the benefit of doubt will be with law enforcement. Try to have some sort of recording device or at least a friend. It's tough to remember everything you ought to do when you are (literally) under the gun. And by "push back," I don't mean physical confrontation but rather execising any administrative/legal options you have. At a minimum, filing a complaint, sending letters, etc. are important to establish a paper trail of the behavior.
 

apjonas

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I should also add that due to Philadelphia's unique status (LTCF required for OC), a LEO might have a colorable claim of reasonable suspicion justifying a investigatory stop - depending on other factors. This would not be true elsewhere in Pennsylvania (a criminal doesn't typically carry a handgun in a holster) and I would respond even more vigorously in such a case. Do you have a state association that would be willing to monitor such incidents? Documentation is everything. You should be able to get the names of the officers and any other records via your state's information access law (I assume PA has one). A pain the backside to be sure but if we don't hang together.....
 

Jersey Ron

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I'm a New Jerseyian with a Florida CCW. Does one need to have a PA CCW for Open Carry or does that include my Floridian license as well? I've asked this before but I don't recall getting a clear, solid answer.









Thanks,



Jersey Ron
 

longwatch

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As Pa has reciprocity with Fla., you are good to go OC or CCW in PA. However with the exception of the inside a vehicle or in Philly you do not need any permit to open carry. For situation like this one I wouldn't mind having a Pa. non resident permit when dealing the police. If they didn't recognize OC as legal they might not recognize that a Florida permit is too.
 

longwatch

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No problem, not to mention that a PA non resident permit is about one the easiest and quickest to get and costs only $20. Also, having a in state permit immunizes you from the Gun Free School Zone Act, just in case they powers that be are desperate to charge you with something.
 

longwatch

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I got mine from Centre County, Pa. http://www.co.centre.pa.us/sheriff/license_application.asp . Since you are from New Jersey you might want to call them and ask what you need to do since you don't have a home state permit. If they can't or won't issue you one, well you still have your Florida permit, you just won't have that little extra (probably unneccessary) bit of legal insurance.
 

longwatch

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Just went looking on PDO and they requirement of a home state permit seems pretty strict, even if your state is may issue like NJ. Looks like you might just have to rely on you Florida permit.
 

ilbob

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longwatch wrote:
No problem, not to mention that a PA non resident permit is about one the easiest and quickest to get and costs only $20. Also, having a in state permit immunizes you from the Gun Free School Zone Act, just in case they powers that be are desperate to charge you with something.
I think it only immunizes residents who have a permit from that sate. I think non-residents and out of state permits don't qualify. I might be wrong on this though.
 

Mike

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ilbob wrote:
longwatch wrote:
No problem, not to mention that a PA non resident permit is about one the easiest and quickest to get and costs only $20. Also, having a in state permit immunizes you from the Gun Free School Zone Act, just in case they powers that be are desperate to charge you with something.
I think it only immunizes residents who have a permit from that sate. I think non-residents and out of state permits don't qualify. I might be wrong on this though.

The text of the permit holder exemption to federal Gun Free School Zone Act does not discriminate against persons based upon their "residency," if any, in any state.

18USC922(q)(2) provides that "(A)It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or
foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable
cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm--
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political
subdivision of the State
, and the law of the State or political
subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a
license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political
subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to
receive the license; . . ."

I have heard that the BATFE takes the position that the license must be from the state in which the school sits. But it sure seems that reasonable statutory construction would allow the inclusion of other states permits if the state in which the school sits considerd that license to be be valid in that state - essentially, by operation of state law, the other state's permit holder is licensed by that state.

Now the federal GFSZ Act was struck down in Lopez as exceeding the Congress' commerce power - the new version added some findings and recittals - as far as I know, GFSZ Act has not been litigated again, perhaps b/c the BATFE does nto rely on it except in plea bargains?
 
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