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Thread: From the BCI: Concealed Firearm Licensees have no duty to conceal

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    I had a discussion with a Deputy Chief of the BCI in regards to the Concealed Firearms Licensing Statute. There were two reasons why I contacted them:

    1. In regards to Utah Statute 76-10-1507, whether or not CFL holders were actually exempt from that particular statute, and if they aren't, is only concealed firearm carry covered (a la Virginia Restaurant Carry)

    2. Whether or not the Concealed Firearm Statute imposes a duty or requirement to conceal the firearm that you are carrying.

    He couldn't get me an answer to the first question yet. The second question was answered in the negative. There is no duty for Concealed Firearm Licensees to carry their firearm concealed. He did note that I may have more police contacts, and that he questioned my reason for wanting to open carry. I told him that's more of a philosophical and tactical question and not a legal one, and that there are two diametrically opposed camps. He understood.

    So open carry is legal, despite a THR members statements to the contrary.

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    Good work Lonnie and thanks for sharing your info!

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    I like them guys at BCI - to the point, not a lot of equivocating. I wish all LEO agency POCs and leaders were like that in the US. it would be helpful for citizens and LEOs alike.

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    From the UTAH BCI webpage: Having a concealed permit from anyissuing stateexempts permit holders from three Utah laws: carrying a concealed and loaded firearm in a vehicle; carrying a concealed firearm on your person and; carrying a loaded and concealed firearm on or about school property. All other state and federal laws still apply. Such as, you may not carry a firearm in secured areas of an airport and you may not carry a firearm in secure federal buildings. These areas should always be posted. But please be aware of these restrictions in case they are not posted.

    My comment:
    If you have a permit from any stateyou are 100% legal to carry a fully loaded firearm openly anywhere in Utah (besides areas otherwise prohibited like courtrooms, secure areas, National Parks, Federal Buildings, etc.).A non-permit holder can open carry also as long as the gun is unloaded according to Utah law (see opencarry.org for the Utah definition of unloaded).


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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    Twothings:

    I OC in Utah everytime I'm there for work. I am mainly in Provo and Sandy. I have been questioned and asked to see my permit by LEOs. NOTHINGhas ever been said after I show my ID and carry permit. Except for thank you, and enjoy your stay. The only reason I believeI am questionedis because of the two (2) action rule for OC in UT. My 1911 is clearly locked and loaded - and it is stainless, so it does get noticed. I do not have details on the two (2) action rule,that is just what I have been told. That OC is legal without permit, but it has to take two (2) actions for you to fire,not just a pull of the trigger.

    I will be there in October and plan on OCing if the weather is warm enough. I get cold below 60 though.

    On the state exemptions to permit holders:

    combatcarry wrote:
    From the UTAH BCI webpage: Having a concealed permit from anyissuing stateexempts permit holders from three Utah laws: carrying a concealed and loaded firearm in a vehicle; carrying a concealed firearm on your person and; carrying a loaded and concealed firearm on or about school property. All other state and federal laws still apply.
    The Gun-Free School Zone act of 1990 states:

    "`(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtain such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;"

    It says that you have to have a license for the State where the school is located. I do not believe that my VA CHP (or any not UT license) would allow me to carry on school property. If anyone know differently, let me know.

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    I have read that the BATFE position is that the permit must be issued by the state the school zone is situated in. However, this means you violate the federal law driving down the street near the school (w/in 1,000 feet).

    The NRA rep at GRPC 2006 said that to the NRA's knowledge, the federal GFSZA is not being "actively" enforced - presumably b/c it was struck down by Lopez I guess.

    So while your VA CHP let's you carry in the K-12 school cafeteria all you want, you might be a criminal under federal law 999 feet away from that school - or, you might not, as Lopez has not been overruled.

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    Mike wrote:
    I have read that the BATFE position is that the permit must be issued by the state the school zone is situated in. However, this means you violate the federal law driving down the street near the school (w/in 1,000 feet).

    The NRA rep at GRPC 2006 said that to the NRA's knowledge, the federal GFSZA is not being "actively" enforced - presumably b/c it was struck down by Lopez I guess.

    So while your VA CHP let's you carry in the K-12 school cafeteria all you want, you might be a criminal under federal law 999 feet away from that school - or, you might not, as Lopez has not been overruled.
    I believe Lopez is still in effect, but I thought that this unconstitutional garbage was revived. Is this not it http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf?

    ProguninTN

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    ProguninTN wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    I have read that the BATFE position is that the permit must be issued by the state the school zone is situated in.* However, this means you violate the federal law driving down the street near the school (w/in 1,000 feet).

    The NRA rep at GRPC 2006 said that to the NRA's knowledge, the federal GFSZA is not being "actively" enforced - presumably b/c it was struck down by Lopez I guess.

    So while your VA CHP let's you carry in the K-12 school cafeteria all you want, you might be a criminal under federal law 999 feet away from that school - or, you might not, as Lopez has not been overruled.
    I believe Lopez is still in effect, but I thought that this unconstitutional garbage was revived.* Is this not it http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf*?

    ProguninTN
    Unconstitutional garbage was the law itself. Supreme Court ruled under the commerce clause that since congress could show no effect on interstate commerce, they were could not regulate this issue. Congress held some hearings and left the law basically intact stating that children were the key to future and blah blah blah. It hasn't been ruled on again, many lawyers take it would end up unconstitutional again. I think now people are just letting sleeping dogs lie.

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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    OC in Smiths in Provo. Didn't even get a look! Bunch of college students in there also.

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    OCat Walmart in Springville then to a very crowded Quizno's for lunch, no one said a word. It certainlydidn't hurtthat the place was full of 40 year old fellasthat looked like they'd just come in from the hunt ha ha...one guy that noticed was a dad in line in front of me who I know sawmy 4" xD 9mm. (I'm not a big guy, the gun looks huge on my 5'9" 150lbs) Nevertheless, hewas so comfortable with it that he left his 4 year old daughter playing on the bar stools next to me and my girlfriend ordering, while he and his wife payed for their food! The only other person that noticed was the cashier who, as I was paying, caught eye of itwhich seemed tocauseher to add a slight hesitation in the middle of her sentence in response to my not wanting the combo meal...tomorrow I am taking my CCW class, should be fun. I like OC but am takin' the class to simply be able to carry my guns in my car without putting them in lockup...good old Utah; you can open carry Israeli but once you climb in the safety of your car the gun must be unloaded and locked in a case.Oh well.

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    possumboy wrote:
    OC in Smiths in Provo. Didn't even get a look! Bunch of college students in there also.
    I shop at that Smiths quite often, keep up the good work!

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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    I had a discussion with a Deputy Chief of the BCI in regards to the Concealed Firearms Licensing Statute. There were two reasons why I contacted them:

    1. In regards to Utah Statute 76-10-1507, whether or not CFL holders were actually exempt from that particular statute, and if they aren't, is only concealed firearm carry covered (a la Virginia Restaurant Carry)

    2. Whether or not the Concealed Firearm Statute imposes a duty or requirement to conceal the firearm that you are carrying.

    He couldn't get me an answer to the first question yet. The second question was answered in the negative. There is no duty for Concealed Firearm Licensees to carry their firearm concealed. He did note that I may have more police contacts, and that he questioned my reason for wanting to open carry. I told him that's more of a philosophical and tactical question and not a legal one, and that there are two diametrically opposed camps. He understood.

    So open carry is legal, despite a THR members statements to the contrary.

    Lonnie, can You be specific which code you asked about. Please.


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    MajorNickmo wrote:
    I like OC but am takin' the class to simply be able to carry my guns in my car without putting them in lockup...good old Utah; you can open carry Israeli but once you climb in the safety of your car the gun must be unloaded and locked in a case.Oh well.
    Major,

    I believe you have been misinformed. You do NOT have to lock upa gun in your car. It cannot be "loaded." "Israeli carry" is ok. It cannot be "concealed." So, assuming your semi-auto does not have one in the pipe you simply need to make sure it is not "concealed." It could be in plain view. Or it could be out of view but "securely encased" where thatspecifically does NOT require being locked up. Agun case that is fully zipped or clasped shut is perfectly legal without needing to be locked. The gun sitting in plain sight on the seat next to you or on the dashboard would also be legal, though on the dashboard may get you some attention you'd rathernot have.

    Please read Utah Revised Statute 76-10-502(2) and (18) for definitions of concealed and securely encased. That is available at http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/76_0C.htm.



    I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, YMMV, standard disclaimer garbage.



    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    MajorNickmo wrote:
    I like OC but am takin' the class to simply be able to carry my guns in my car without putting them in lockup...good old Utah; you can open carry Israeli but once you climb in the safety of your car the gun must be unloaded and locked in a case.Oh well.
    Major,

    I believe you have been misinformed. You do NOT have to lock upa gun in your car. It cannot be "loaded." "Israeli carry" is ok. It cannot be "concealed." So, assuming your semi-auto does not have one in the pipe you simply need to make sure it is not "concealed." It could be in plain view. Or it could be out of view but "securely encased" where thatspecifically does NOT require being locked up. Agun case that is fully zipped or clasped shut is perfectly legal without needing to be locked. The gun sitting in plain sight on the seat next to you or on the dashboard would also be legal, though on the dashboard may get you some attention you'd rathernot have.

    Please read Utah Revised Statute 76-10-502(2) and (18) for definitions of concealed and securely encased. That is available at http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/76_0C.htm.



    I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, YMMV, standard disclaimer garbage.



    Charles
    Yup...,

    Utah Code Section 76-10-501




    76-10-501. Definitions. As used in this part: (1) (a) "Antique firearm" means any firearm: (i) (A) with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, ...

    2) (a) "Concealed dangerous weapon" means a dangerous weapon that is covered, hidden, or secreted in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence and is readily accessible for immediate use.
    (b) A dangerous weapon shall not be considered a concealed dangerous weapon if it is a firearm which is unloaded and is securely encased.
    (18) "Securely encased" means not readily accessible for immediate use, such as held in a gun rack, or in a closed case or container, whether or not locked, or in a trunk or other storage area of a motor vehicle, not including a glove box or console box.

    You could even have it in a tupperware in between the seats if you wanted "utah loaded" or "Israeli Carry" if you didn't feel comfortable "in plain view".

    Happy Travels



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    Did you ever get an answer to #1?

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    No longer an OpenCarry.org subscriber.

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