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Thread: Bad Run In

  1. #1
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    I was riding my 4 wheeler late at night in some woods that are known to have questionable people in them. so I was OCing..(with a tactical ..for comfort) and after the woods .. I exited in an area I didn't know. long story short I was stopped on the side of the road to call some friends to come get me .cops saw me first.I was fully cooperative and moved slowly and steady.. they spent the entire time bitching about my CC permit was not in the system.as I explained that I didn't need it and it was legal to OC in PA. they cuffed me for about 40 minutes and decided what to do with me. I knew one of the cops that worked at there precinct..I think that is why they didn't give me more than they did.. but I had to go back to there precinct to prove ownership of the weapon.etc. they had no idea of the PA gun laws.. all at the end I got my gun back and was told that I shouldn't OC anymore because this isn't the days of Wyatt erp..(sp).. I did carry that night but haven't carried now for two days.. I think it is just nerves.. I will start again soon..

    sorry so long.. thought you should know.all in all .. the look on their faces when the "we were wrong...here is your gun" line came out.. PRICELESS!!



  2. #2
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    I got my gun back and was told that I shouldn't OC anymore because this isn't the days of Wyatt Earp

    Oh I think I would have replied, "Yeah it's much more dangerous now than it was in Wyatt Earp's time, at least Wyatt knew it was actually legal to disarm the Clanton gang."

    I have a real big issue with law enforcement enforcing their personal preferences rather than law. I ran into clerks at the Sheriff's office who were very quick to interpret law for me and explain to me that there is a difference between what the law says and how its applied in the field. In short, these people were touting enforcement of the "color" of law. I dont think I would hesitate to point this out from here on out.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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  3. #3
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    I think you should file a detailed complaint with internal affairs and the local commonwealths attorney (as I did) after my similar experience. My internal affairs complaint was upheld, and the officer received administrative discipline. The official finding was that some of his actions "were inappropriate and not up to the expectations of the division". I have never seen the written response from the commonwealths attorney, but I was told they supported my position, going further than I did in that they found several other mistakes on the part of the officer that never even occurred to me - apparently, he illegally searched me when he removed my handun from my holster, as a Terry Stop cannot include the removal of an open, legally carried handgun without the subjects permission (which I did not grant because I was not asked, I have no idea if you did), etc. Also, the officer was not supposed to do a gun trace to see if my gun was stolen, he had no cause to do that, under the circumstances, etc. I spoke with a seargent first (that same night) who was a nice enough guy but we had to agree to disagree - he almost talked me out of the internal affairs complaint by being reasonable enough and hearing me out but also by slyly indicating that I was a fool for open carrying and that the officers actions were reasonable in his mind "I'd do the exact same thing". If I were you, I'd start this process now. I have a legal background, although this can all be done without an attorney. For example, get a copy of the "mark-out" and/or incident report (if they wrote one, they did not in my case, although I did get the mark out report). That was $5.00. I also filed three seperate Freedom of Information Act Requests - I wanted them to know I took this very seriously.... two of them resulted in useful information. Make sure your letter to internal affairs is very detailed, factual, avoids opinion or supposition as to what the officers were thinking and sticks to facts, and at the end outline specific claims you want investigated - "unlawful detention without cause", etc (depending on the circumstances, even if you were not handcuffed, you may have been arrested by definition nonetheless). Also, attach a copy of a cover of Police Chief magazine from last year where an attorney (and former police chief) outlines why even a Terry Stop is unconsttituional in states that allow open carry. In Henrico, they found that very interesting coming from one of their own - I also sent a copy of it to the officer himself, the Chiefs suite, the internal affairs and training departments, etc. You can probably easily find it on google under "open carry police chief magazine" or something (contact me if you can't find it, I can mail a copy from my files to you). I also filed a complaint with the Justice Department, that was forwarded to a local FBI agent who investigates police misconduct, but I didn't get notified of this for months after the internal affairs investigation was completed, and I wrote back asking them to drop the matter since everything had been resolved to my satisfaction (copying the chief, internal affairs, and the officer involved onmy letter back and theletterfrom the Justice Department to the FBI agent). Perhaps you have no need to go that far, but I'd definitely file the internal affairs complaint, at the least, it puts them on warning not to harass someone else... if you are a respectable, adult white male, think what they may have done to a 20 year old guy, or a minority, etc. They need to be put on some sort of written warning, which may cause them to issue a policy memo on open carry, etc...

  4. #4
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    Bolt06 wrote:
    I was riding my 4 wheeler late at night in some woods that are known to have questionable people in them. so I was OCing.
    Do you mind saying what jurisdiction you were in?

    I would encourage you to follow Sicsemper's advice and file a formal complaint.

    By the way, the issue of Police Chiefs magazine he is talking about was the December 2005 issue. The article can be viewed here.



  5. #5
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    I was in the tullytown police departments juristiction... when I was stopped .. I had been riding for a small distance and was on the grass next to a public road when stopped but I did cross the road that I was sitting on and that is why the initial approach.. it was only after they noticed the weapon did they seem to get "into it".. they called for backup and the backup was about 30 seconds off. when he got out of the car he already had his glock 23 (.40 compact) drawn at this left side. I was asked if they could hold me weapon for me to which I told them they may and to be cautious because I had one in the chamber. I was asked if I had been shooting that day and I said no yesterday(Friday) and asked why the question.. I was told that there was only a couple rounds in the mag. I told them that was all I had left after shooting and I loaded what I had left. (it was 5) if I can't do the job in the first couple it will at least give me the chance to get away. I did get a ticket for uninsured vehicle on roadway.... after I gave up my weapon I was told to get off the 4 wheeler and they cuffed me. searched me etc.. I was told not to fight the no insurance ticket otherwise they would slap more onto me. I already asked my friend to try to fix this through back door channels but I don't know how the progress is going. I really don't want to have to pay 381 bucks.. when in the end the only thing i did wrong was ride a 4 wheeler out of the woods.

  6. #6
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    Well now, remember that OC is PA in a motor behicle requires a LTCF or CHP from any state - so asking for your permit was OK, but the Terry stop of you and your vehicle was not - the PA Supreme Court has held in Hawkins v. Commonwealth (1997) that mere information about a man with a gun is not grounds even for a Terry stop - see opinion at http://www.courts.state.pa.us/oppost...f/k00jiz95.pdf.

    Why are the police giving you a hard time over verification of your permit? After all, PA accepts all permits from any state for vehicle carry, even if they do not have 24/7 verification.

    And the police warning you not to open carry was not right.

    If it were me, I would make a written complaint to the police and copy the DA and Mayor in Tulleyville, asking them nicely but firmly in "the interest of justice" to take action to inform officers that:

    1. Open carry is legal in PA, and no permit required on foot, except in Philly.

    2. Man with gun calls are not per se grounds for Terry stops.

    3. Any state's gun carry permit is good to go on its face in PA for vehicle carry - no verification of permit is required.

  7. #7
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    I carry relevant PA gun laws printed on a folded up piece of paper in my wallet for this very reason.

  8. #8
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    Mike wrote:
    The Terry stop of you and your vehicle was not - the PA Supreme Court has held in Hawkins v. Commonwealth (1997) that mere information about a man with a gun is not grounds even for a Terry stop - see opinion at http://www.courts.state.pa.us/oppost...f/k00jiz95.pdf.
    I added this ruling to the PA page on the main site.



  9. #9
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    This is my $.02 worth, so does anyone have change for a nickel?

    Much has been made in this thread about the "Terry Stop" issue but according Bolt's statements, the initial contact was due to possible motor vehicle infraction, not the firearm itself.

    Once the officers initiated the traffic stop, they were within their rights (unfortunately) to disarm him for the duration of the encounter (as long as it took to write the ticket), unless they developed probable cause during the traffic stop. Taking you back to their precinct to verify that the firearm was yours is probably beyond the "reasonable detention" criteria since they could check that the firearm wasn't stolen via the radio by asking for a NCIC check. These take about 5-10 minutes, maximum unless the system is down.

    I would definately follow SicSemper's advice, especially since their comments about fight the no insurance ticket will only lead to more charges reeks of intimidation and threats, and tramples all over your rights as an accused.

  10. #10
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    But what was the basis of the stop to begin with? Was he breaking any law by being stopped at the saide of the road?

  11. #11
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    Bolt06 wrote:
    but I did cross the road that I was sitting on and that is why the initial approach..
    I believe this was the reason for the initial stop ... an ATV on a public road.

  12. #12
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    Is an ATV on a public road illegal?

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    Mike wrote:
    Is an ATV on a public road illegal?
    According to this brochure from PA DCNR, yes it is except in 4 limited circumstances.

    http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry...blic%20road%22

    OPERATION
    ATVs may be operated:
    1. On state-owned property on clearly marked and previously
    designated ATV trails;
    * 2. On highways and streets when necessary to cross a bridge or
    culvert;
    * 3. On highways and streets during periods of emergency when
    so declared by a governmental agency having jurisdiction;
    * 4. On highways and streets for special ATV events of limited
    duration that are conducted according to a prearranged
    schedule under permit from the governmental unit having
    jurisdiction
    But reading the next paragraph:

    An ATV may make a direct crossing of a street or two-lane highway
    provided:
    • The crossing is made at an angle of approximately 90 degrees to
    the direction of the highway, and at a place where no obstruction
    prevents a quick and safe crossing;
    • The ATV is brought to a complete stop before crossing the
    shoulder or highway;
    • The driver yields the right-of-way to all oncoming traffic that
    constitutes an immediate hazard.
    • In crossing a divided highway, the crossing is made only at an
    intersection of such highway with another public street or
    highway.
    • Driver must be at least 16 years of age unless he has a safety
    certificate and is under the direct supervision of a person at least
    18 years of age.

  14. #14
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    For all the pennsylvanians out there, perhaps a group of you should write a very detailed letter to your state representatives about what law enforcement is doing in regards to the hassling of law abiding citizens who are doing nothing more that what is their constitutional right to do. Get said representatives to put together a letter for the papers that would inform law enforcement that they are violating constitutional rights.

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    I think DKSuddeth has a good idea. A letter from a group would definitely catch some attention.

    ProguninTN

  16. #16
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    DKSuddeth wrote:
    For all the pennsylvanians out there, perhaps a group of you should write a very detailed letter to your state representatives about what law enforcement is doing in regards to the hassling of law abiding citizens who are doing nothing more that what is their constitutional right to do. Get said representatives to put together a letter for the papers that would inform law enforcement that they are violating constitutional rights.
    Your state reps don't care about local officials b/c they have no direct power over them- if you want to complain to the state reps, complain about the PA State Dept. of cons. gun ban!

    Make your complaint to the local police and local elected officials overseeing the police.

    In this case, you have local police officers uniformed about the PA Uniform Firearms Act - a simple issue.

    The fellow may also have an issue with a questionable traffic stop - the facts appear murky as discussed above.

    Stay on point - the local police need a refresher on the PA UFA.



  17. #17
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    Mike wrote:
    Your state reps don't care about local officials b/c they have no direct power over them- if you want to complain to the state reps, complain about the PA State Dept. of cons. gun ban!

    Make your complaint to the local police and local elected officials overseeing the police.

    In this case, you have local police officers uniformed about the PA Uniform Firearms Act - a simple issue.

    The fellow may also have an issue with a questionable traffic stop - the facts appear murky as discussed above.

    Stay on point - the local police need a refresher on the PA UFA.

    From what I've read over the last year, it seems to me that the locals in Philly are more interested in gun control than they are in upholding any constitutional right. Is Philly an entity outside of the jurisdiction of the PA state constitution? It would seem to me that enough noise to a state representative would get them interested. Thats just my opinion though.

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    I decided to start with the Pennsylvania Police Commissioner and request that he send out a training email to at least get the cops familiar with the information and go from there. I really don't want to pay this ticket but I wonder if I am trying to fight it what else they will try to pin on me.

  19. #19
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    norahc do you know if riding in residential neighborhoods is legal..

  20. #20
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    Bolt06 wrote:
    norahc do you know if riding in residential neighborhoods is legal..
    No clue...I did a quick google search to come up with the DCNR brochure.

  21. #21
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    Well thanks for all your help so far. I have decided to fight it. I also have found that the ticket was written for 50 yards away from where I was. because I was about 50-75 yards from there jurisdiction line. I have to research more to find out how flexible they are with the lines but the ticket was written incorrectly so I am going to start with that and work my way down the rest of the things that were incorrect about that night. any additional info is always welcome and appreciated. thanks

  22. #22
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    I left a voice mail for the boro police chief asking that he make sure his LEOs know that open cary is legal.

    Form what your saying, the stop of you on your ATV was without basis. Please do pursue.

  23. #23
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    Maybe instead of blaming the LEO's about their supposed lack of knowledge, the ATV riders should read up on the laws too;

    §7727. Additional limitations on operation.

    Except as otherwise permitted under Title 34 (relating to game), no person shall:
    (1) Operate or ride in any snowmobile or ATV with any bow and arrows or with any firearm in his possession unless it is unstrung or unloaded.


    So unless you were OC'ing with an unloaded handgun, you are guilty of an offense.

  24. #24
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    if you were paying attention he has a permit to carry and riding an atv or snow mobile is the same as a car. your refering to hunting laws. so if he was hunting and had a rifle then yes that is illegle.

  25. #25
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    If you were paying attention it doesn't matter if he has a CCW or not, current law says that you cannot carry on an ATV unless it is unloaded.

    And I am not refering to hunting, the section states "except as permitted" in the hunting section.

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