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Thread: State Parks

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    Regular Member kentuckywingman's Avatar
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    At risked of getting blasted (no pun intended) from the 2nd Ammendment folks....

    Can I open carry in a Kentucky state park? I was fishing with a friend in a state park and was carrying because it was an unfamiliar area and because I like to carry. Afterwards I was concerned that had a LEO shown up, I might have had issues. I know there has been debate on CC in state parks but I wasn't sure about OC.



    Thanks!

    Wingman

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    Wingman,

    As you know, IANAL !

    Nevertheless, if you check out the KC3 site, it seems that both CC AND OC are OK in KY state parks.Since the law seems silent on the issue of OC, as evidenced by the recent nonsense in Georgetown, I would say that OC is certainly lawful.

    Maybe enquire of James Hall at KC3? He should have a definitive answer.

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    Red face

    I thought this would be good to being up since its te for the outings in our state and county parks. Cc and oc is legal in all state and county parks, however as I'm sure u know some cty buildings don't allow cc, so if they have a sign all they can ask is for u to leave, if they made u, if they did I would just have to uncover and b fine. As far as fishing on state lakes I have a question. I hears that on lakes with damns controlled by the army core of engineers that carry is prohibited within so many feet of the damn, can neone help me out with this?

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    This is true. It's a federal issue as I understand it and supposedly goes beyond KRS into another set of Kxx laws. I'm quite sure that one of the other guys that's better versed on this will chime in soon. In my locality, the signs aren't posted at the damn perse, they are located as you go down into the spillway. There are 2 small signs; the first one has the typical gun with a line through it, the second sign has a bottle of beer with line through it as well.
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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    18 usc 930

    The problem comes with who owns the dam. If it's the TVA or US Army Corps of Engineers then having a weapon is covered under 18 USC 930, as well as regulations under their own guidlines. The US Army Corps of Engineers has tried to include the entire lake, but that is a falsehood. Only the dam area owned by the US Government is covered. Smaller lake dams may be owned by the state and is not off limits to carry.
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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's what I was trying to remember. Our dams around here are Corp operated. My CDWL instructor had made reference to the fact that he had trained most of the CoE personnel for their CDWL's and when I inquired about this topic, he told me to go talk to the local CoE guy but if it's federal law then it wouldn't matter even if he agreed.

    But on the upside all the signage is ONLY in the spillway area and NOT around the lake. The same is true of our second lake, where we held our 25 year class reunion, which I DIDN'T attend because of this fact.
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    So does neone know how far away from damns and spillways u need to be? I'm having trouble finding nething.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    So does neone know how far away from damns and spillways u need to be? I'm having trouble finding nething.
    There might be a good legal answer on this one but I've always considered it in the most logical form, anything on this side of the NFA sign is OK. No, i have no legal backing but it seems obvious in the logical sense.
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    My mother lives down at Nolin lake and there is something called the red line, which is the boundary for the Army Corps of Engineers to my understanding and is up the bank some distance and follows the perimeter of the lake. You should make yourself aware of whether the ACE has control of the dams/spillways or the entire lake, depending on where your at.

    I did some research on this and this is an official letter I found.


    Subject: New Federal Law Pertaining To Firearms on National Park/National
    Wildlife Service Lands Is Not Applicable at USACE Projects and Facilities

    All -- a new law regarding firearms on some specific federal properties takes effect next week. This is not new information for us, and we have been reviewing it for quite a while. Counsel has been fully engaged. We offer
    the following guidance:

    1. Section 512 of the Credit Card Act of 2009 (Public Law 111-024) pertains
    to possession of firearms and allows an individual to possess an assembled or
    functional firearm in any unit of the National Park Service or National
    Wildlife Refuge System provided that the individual is not otherwise
    prohibited by law from possessing the firearm and the possession is in
    compliance with the law of the State in which the National Park/Refuge is
    located. This law becomes effective on 22 February 2010 on property under
    the jurisdiction of the National Park Service or the U.S. Fish and Wildlife
    Service.

    2. Public Law 111-024 does not apply to Corps projects or facilities. The
    passage of this new law does not affect application of Title 36 regulations
    (36 C.F.R., Chapter III, Part 327, Rules and Regulations Governing Public Use
    of COE Water Resources Development Projects). 36 C.F.R. 327.13(a)
    prohibits the possession of loaded firearms or ammunition on lands and waters administered by the Corps unless one of the exceptions in 36 C.F.R.
    327.13(a)(1)-(4) applies. The full text of 36 C.F.R. can be viewed on the
    NRM Gateway at: http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/emp...fs/title36.pdf.

    3. 36 C.F.R. 327.13 remains in full force and effect. It will continue to
    prohibit loaded concealed weapons on Corps properties regardless of the new
    law and notwithstanding any contrary provisions of State law. It remains
    Corps policy that we will not honor State-issued concealed weapon permits on our facilities and that District Commanders do not have discretion under 36 C.F.R. 327.13(a)(4) to create blanket exceptions to this policy. A change of this nature to Corps regulations in 36 C.F.R. Part 327 would require
    formal rulemaking procedures under the Administrative Procedures Act (5
    U.S.C. 551-706).

    4. It is incumbent upon us to communicate and reinforce our firearms
    regulation with our visitors and partners, which may include posting park
    entrances with "No Firearms" signs IAW the Corps sign manual (EP 310-1-6a and EP 310-1-6b) and taking other actions deemed necessary by Operations Project Managers as coordinated appropriately with other Corps elements. Information related to this matter will also be posted for public awareness on the NRM Gateway.

    5. HQUSACE POCs for this matter are Stephen Austin, Natural Resources
    Manager, Operations (for Visitor Assistance policy and program administration
    information), 202-761-4489, stephen.b.austin@usace.army.mil; and Milt Boyd, Assistant Counsel, Office of Chief Counsel (for regulatory questions on
    federal lands) at 202-761-8546, Milton.W.Boyd@usace.army.mil.

    Provided for your attention and appropriate action.

    Mike

    Michael G. Ensch, SES
    Chief, Operations & Regulatory CoP
    and Lakes & Rivers Division RIT
    HQUSACE, CECW-LRD
    441 G St, NW Rm 3E92
    Washington, DC 20314

    Work (202) 761-1983
    Cell (703) 386-6102


    I have not been to the dam/spillway there to confirm if there is a separate sign prohibiting firearms in that specific area, but the existence of one would not mean that you can carry on the lake, as that whole lake is ACE property. The same could be said for any dam/spillway that has one. I've seen text that allows shotguns during hunting season, but not near dams/spillways and the same text forbids centerfire guns completely.

    Fair warning, do your research.
    Last edited by UnfetteredMight; 04-05-2011 at 12:26 AM.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    State Parks, State/National Forests, & WMA's

    I agree, we need to do our research on these things. As I read your post about the ACoE issue, I thought I remembered reading that there was legal carry in State Parks, State/National Forests, WMA's in Kentucky.

    So, I researched it and it is legal to carry in State Parks, State/National Forests, WMA's in Kentucky.

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/kentucky.pdf

    Go to the top of page 5 and you'll find it listed there.

    Now, all we need to do is ascertain the "border line" between the ACoE area and the safe carry area.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    I agree, we need to do our research on these things. As I read your post about the ACoE issue, I thought I remembered reading that there was legal carry in State Parks, State/National Forests, WMA's in Kentucky.

    So, I researched it and it is legal to carry in State Parks, State/National Forests, WMA's in Kentucky.

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/kentucky.pdf

    Go to the top of page 5 and you'll find it listed there.

    Now, all we need to do is ascertain the "border line" between the ACoE area and the safe carry area.
    I sent an email to the ACoE last night and this is the response I was given. Pay particular attention to the fact that property may be owned by the ACoE and leased out to the state, which would still get it a "state park" title. He was nice enough to provide some links to determine who controls what and a contact number if there is any confusion. This isn't to say that he may have provided inaccurate information, but best to err on the side of caution unless such can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
    Caveats: NONE

    Mr. Miller,

    Thank you for the inquiry concerning firearms on Corps of Engineers lands and
    waters.

    The Federal Rules and Regulations governing the public use of water resources
    development projects administered by the Chief of Engineers applies to both
    lands and waters at those projects. Regardless of who is managing a
    particular area of Corps property/waters, these rules still apply. For
    example, there is a State Park administered by Kentucky State Parks at Green
    River Lake. Although this area is leased to the state and State Park rules
    apply, it is still Corps of Engineers property. Federal rules and
    regulations still apply to these lands and waters leased to the state.

    Title 36, Part 327.13, addresses explosives, firearms, other weapons and
    fireworks on Corps lands and waters:

    a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing
    devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:

    1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement
    officer;

    2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under Sec. 327.8,
    with devices being unloaded when transporting to, from or between hunting and
    fishing sites;

    3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or

    4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.

    b) Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including
    fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written permission has
    been received from the District Commander.

    All Title 36 Rules and Regulations, Part 327, are available at
    http://www.lrl.usace.army.mil/opto/article.asp?id=77 for your viewing.

    You can find all Corps of Engineers project, both lakes and locks, by
    visiting http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/ and click on the "Visitors" tab at
    the top. From there, you can click on the Kentucky to see where all of the
    Corps projects are located within the state.

    We strive to provide a safe experience at our facilities by having Park
    Ranger patrols, additional law enforcement patrols and through use of the
    CorpsWatch program.

    Feel free to contact me directly if you have additional questions or need
    clarification.

    Thank you,

    Keith

    Keith C. Chasteen
    Natural Resources Specialist
    OP-TO
    Louisville District
    US Army Corps of Engineers
    502-315-6724
    Last edited by UnfetteredMight; 04-05-2011 at 05:27 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    I went to look over the site and not surprisingly, it's more of the typical bureaucratic federal B.S. with no answer to the 2nd Amendment issue.

    Perhaps the next target of our legal "corrections" should be the ACoE's seemingly tyrannical power over the free expression of our 2nd Amendment Right!
    Last edited by neuroblades; 04-10-2011 at 02:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    I went to look over the site and not surprisingly, it's more of the typical bureaucratic federal B.S. with no answer to the 2nd Amendment issue.

    Perhaps the next target of our legal "corrections" should be the ACoE's aeemingly tyrannical power over the free expression of our 2nd Amendment Right!
    I agree. Why should ANY public lakes/land owned by the Federal government be off limits? I know they started to allow them in National Parks......but not those run by the ACoE? C'mon, couldn't they then just make them ALL run by the ACoE and bypass that law? I think it should be limited to Federal facilities if anything. We should be able to take a firearm onto the post office's parking lot, we should be able to take a firearm onto ACoE property, land and water.

    Looking at the list, it looks like it's ALL of our lakes and parks, or at least all the major ones, complete BS.
    Last edited by UnfetteredMight; 04-06-2011 at 09:18 AM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnfetteredMight View Post
    I agree. Why should ANY public lakes/land owned by the Federal government be off limits? I know they started to allow them in National Parks......but not those run by the ACoE? C'mon, couldn't they then just make them ALL run by the ACoE and bypass that law? I think it should be limited to Federal facilities if anything. We should be able to take a firearm onto the post office's parking lot, we should be able to take a firearm onto ACoE property, land and water.

    Looking at the list, it looks like it's ALL of our lakes and parks, or at least all the major ones, complete BS.
    I look at it like this. If it's NOT posted, it's passable!

    Dewey Lake has NO signage EXCEPT as you enter the spillway but it's on the roadway into the spillway so you'd still have to go in to turn around and come back out, THEIR FAULT!

    Paintsville Lake has signage on the main road leading into the lake but still again, you'd have to go on in to turn around to come back out if you're following the law, THEIR FAULT AGAIN!

    ACoE should not have this level of authority over our 2nd Amendment Right!
    Last edited by neuroblades; 04-10-2011 at 02:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    I look at it like this. If it's NOT posted, it's passable!

    Dewet Lake has NO signage EXCEPT as you enter the spillway but it's on the roadway into the spillway so you'd still have to go in to turn around and come back out, THEIR FAULT!

    Paintsville Lake has signage on the main road leading into the lake but still again, you'd have to go on in to turn around to come back out if you're following the law, THEIR FAULT AGAIN!

    ACoE should not have this level of authority over our 2nd Amendment Right!
    I don't think a Federal judge is going to except that defense, remember ignorance is never an excuse.

    I completely agree with your last sentence.

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    I find it absurd That we can carry on all our state parks and now certain federal parks but not on a lake controlled by ace. That should b challenged it seems a lil unconstitutional. I do most certainly do my research but like I said I can't find how far from the damn we must b. I do not visit lakes with damn controlled by Feds Neways I was just curious.

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    i go to barren river state park alot during the summer and no firearms signs are posted thru out the park. as i looked at the site it shows that the corps manage baily's point, browns ford, and beaver creek, these are the area's i go most there. however on the site the barren river lake state park isn't managed by the corps, does this mean that except for the area's mentioned being managed i could carry? its kind of confusing, the camping area at the park has a no firearms sign up. i've looked further and seems like every area that can be used at the park is covered as being managed by the corps, but when i put in the whole barren river state park its not marked as being managed by the corps. i sure can't make any sense of this, i guess thats how they like it make it confusing and we'll go the safe rout and not carry.

  18. #18
    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    I own a home at Lake Cumberland and am an avid boater. I carry openly or concealed at the lake every weekend I am down. Have passed Kentucky Wildlife Enforcement Officers, Corps of Engineers employees, and any numerous others and have not had so much as a look of concern. I can not find where anyone, other than those committing other violations, ever cited for firearms alone. I think this is nothing about nothing. Stay away from the dam area and you will be fine. If you commit an armed robbery, maybe the Feds may charge you, but I doubt it.
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  19. #19
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    If anyone is wondering, YATESVILLE LAKE is COMPLETELY corps controlled. You cannot have a firearm on land or in the water.

    The woman (I guess a secretary) I got this information from seemed well informed, she paraphrased what she could of the law before she found the pamphlet stating the law.

    When she was done I said "So I just need permission from the district commander." and she giggled like it would be no easy task.

    So, has anyone ever gotten permission from a district commander to carry on corps land? And does anyone think it would be possible for me to get it?

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